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Unread 07-05-2014, 12:29
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Re: Fouls that "Didn't Affect the Outcome of the Match"

Quote:
Originally Posted by QUOTE=Pretzel View Post
The simple truth for this season, and the lesson that I feel can be taken away from it is that, going forward, the best idea would be to try and always have separate foul and scoring referees. Especially in a game like this where the outcome of a match can be determined by a single referee determining split-second possession, having scorers freed up to watch for that and referees able to watch for fouls would improve both the scoring and assigned fouls.
This was already the case this year. Early weeks had 2 scoring refs and 2+1 foul refs (+head ref). By Worlds it was 2 scoring refs per ball and around 2+1 for fouls (at NYC we got up to 4+1). I still watched assists get missed at Worlds.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rick.oliver View Post
The role of a Coach includes being aware of the situations during the match and that includes being assessed a foul. Fouls are signaled during the match and in some cases they are included in the real-time scoring (as I recall).
Certainly, but this depends on the foul being signaled, and being signaled correctly. I'll keep score (goals and fouls) in my head as a coach regardless of year. The amount of attention I pay on top of that to the projector varies by game. For 2013-type games where scores can be post-checked, I only look for fouls that get entered without signalling (happened a lot, actually). When there's basically no cross-check like 2014, you basically have to babysit the darn thing. Nonetheless, it's not uncommon for signaled fouls to be removed post-match. Occasionally there are even unsignaled fouls added post-match. More often there's a TFoul that becomes a Foul or vice versa, though I have some success predicting these with crews I've reffed with.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mathking View Post
To be clear, there were a lot of foul points this year. Even once you factor for total scores. I think another factor to consider was that the real time scoring was better than it often is. It was certainly much better than 2013. 2011 is a special case because the tube scoring was good and easy to keep up with, but the glitch-prone minibot towers ended up deciding a bunch of matches. There have been seasons where it seemed like every other match had a substantially changed score due either to fouls or to recounts of the scoring objects. But this year fouls called early certainly caused some teams to alter their choices because you could actually see the adjusted point totals. There is no way to completely avoid having to "redo" scoring after matches sometimes. There is a big difference between FRC and most other team sports: We don't stop the match for fouls. But I still think the real time scoring this year, in spite of easily correctable flaws, was pretty good. The problem was in the rules and in the fact that there was too much for the referees to do.
This is interesting. I've read some of the other fouls-deciding-matches data, and they seem to reflect that 2014 is higher than recent history (self-defined as a high school senior's FRC career). Do we understand the discrepancy? Also, since you're going by event, I wonder if there's a way to identify event-over-event trends.

I'd like to delve into 'real time scoring was better', though. I think your definition is reasonable for the OP's question, but now it sounds we're conflating that with actual quality of the game for play. Yes, real time and post-match scores are closer. Barring fouls, auton/teleop changes, and a semi-common software bug, they were almost always identical. But this isn't a sign of success--it's a sign of lack of cross-checking. In 2013, we could correctly* recount post-match, and I could tally crashes above me and flashes in front me. 2012's had a good 'one ball in one basket'; 2011 was super easy; 2010 was super slow; 2008 was closer to 2013; 2007 was 2011 with a drunken calculator; 2006 was 2013 with too much pressure on auto scores; 2005 could post-check... Yes, I did that on purpose. Let's not talk about Lunacy.

The problem with 2013 (and 2008 laps, and somewhat 2006 auto) is that when assists get missed, they're gone. Yes, real-time reflected post-match more often, but as a reflection of what happened on the field it's at least the worst in half a decade, and really it's longer.
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