[Lil' Lavery]

Originally Posted by marshall

Sean, at the risk of causing you to go into a rage (and I hope you don't because you seem like a nice fella)... I don't understand your analysis of the problem. Alliance selections work in mysterious ways. I have seen teams choose numbers at random from people in the audience shouting them as well as teams pick rookie teams who had barely functional robots because they wanted to share the experience.

Let us forget robot modifications for a moment and then let me ask you this. If a team were to choose a less capable alliance partner instead of a more capable team then is that inspirational? What about choosing a team not based on scouting data but based on purely the fact that you like their pants, is that ok? (Go #TeamCrazyPants) What about choosing a team because the mentors know each other really well? What about because the students know each other really well? What about because they paid you to choose them?

None of that is particularly relevant to this discussion. Nobody here is claiming that alliance selection is perfect. There are plenty of shortcomings in many facets of FRC, alliance selection included. However, claiming that because a system has other potential flaws means you should embrace a contentious aspect is not sound logic. I don't have to pick a bad option* just because there are even worse options. Strive to optimize the situation, rather than perpetuating the flaws.

*Do not interpret this to mean I'm definitely declaring that cheesecaking is a bad option. I'm just illustrating my logic.

Originally Posted by marshall

Now let's add robot modifications back in. What about choosing a team with a known bad drivetrain that they have to repair before eliminations and you offered to help them or lend them parts? What about choosing a team based on the fact that they are going to put a giant goal blocking sheet on their robot instead of choosing another offensive capable robot because defense suits your strategy?

The drivetrain scenario is cheesecaking (albeit, offering parts solely on the condition that a team will be on your alliance may not leave the best taste in many people's mouths).
The second scenario is picking based off of strategy. I'm not advocating we take the ability to select strategically out of the hands of alliance captains. I'm not advocating we take any selection choices out of the hands of alliance captains.

I'll try to word my point slightly differently, in the hopes it is better communicated.

When people cite the inspirational value of cheesecaking, they're almost always talking about the team receiving the cheesecake. They talk about the inspirational value of winning (which has also shown up in many other threads). They talk about the inspirational value of getting to work closely with powerhouse teams as alliance partners. They talk about the inspirational value of collaborating together to improve a robot. When all parties are on the same page, that can be some real value.

However, the benefit of one team is not the total utility of the move. That one team may have been very inspired, but that doesn't mean other parties were not disillusioned by the same circumstances. The cheesecaked team was granted an opportunity, but (barring a 24 team event) another team was left out in order for that team to have that opportunity. In the case of a large and highly competitive event (such as a championship subdivision), the teams left out are highly capable teams already. Seeing a highly competitive (by any metric) team left on the sidelines in favor of a "blank slate" is something that would obviously raise questions and mixed emotions. Not simply for the teams excluded, but for parents, VIPs, sponsors, and others who may not be familiar with the esoteric practices of FRC.

I'm not arguing that cheesecake is automatically bad. I'm not arguing that cheesecake is automatically good. I'm stating that there are factors that should be considered, beyond how the teams receiving the cheesecake feel. They are not the sole parties impact by the act of cheesecaking. Like it or not, some of the peculiar things that happen in FRC might not appeal to the grandmothers in the audience.

Based on the comments in this thread and many of those preceding, you know firsthand that there are plenty of those out there who did not get the same takeaway from your partnership with 1114 as you did. Some of that is based hearsay or factual inaccuracies. You can do your best to communicate the real story, but you're never going to reach everyone. Further still, there are those who know what happened and still don't like it. These are people who are ultimately aiming for the same culture change, and their opinions of the situation do matter, even if they were not directly involved.

To me, cheesecaking is obviously a grey area.

Originally Posted by marshall

Just spitballing but perhaps instead of alliance selections we could move to a process by which the serpentine draft just auto assigns teams based on qualification rankings instead of allowing a team's feelings and perception to come into play. Except that qualification rankings could be attributed to match luck. We've all seen some post-turtles turn up in the top 8 at events. So we should probably get rid of qualification matches and then we can judge robots purely on if they can accomplish the tasks that a team built them for. We don't even need events for that, we can all just sit in our labs and build robots in isolation and take videos of them completing the tasks.... Cheesecaking isn't the only slippery slope around here.

I have no idea what this statement is in response to. Nothing in my posts in this thread or the previous thread stated anything regarding the validity of qualification rankings. Nor were any of my positions "slippery slopes." As stated, my position was pointing out that the totality should be considered, not simply the one team that (in some cases) benefits positively. My position, as stated, was that the benefits of cheesecaking and being an alliance partner are (unfortunately) zero-sum. Neither of those are arguing that cheesecaking is a slippery slope, but rather they're challenging the logic being used here. Nor am I even claiming to have all the answers (and the post you quoted from the other thread makes that very clear).