Quote:
Originally Posted by ProfessorAlekM
There is also a monopoly in FRC, where everything promotes VEX and AndyMark. It would be better to start including products from a larger variety of companies, since they can't even keep their own products in stock despite the fact that they know what parts people are probably going to need for competition before the kickoff.
Vex and AndyMark produce parts and then get library support for their specific part. Since they are certified FRC suppliers, they then sell parts for more than their worth because people trust them more.
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Let's ignore for a moment that BOTH the Talon and Victor are in stock currently.
Let's ignore for a moment that there are at least 2 other companies actively selling ESCs that are legal for FRC applications.
Let's ignore for a moment that there's a handful of grandfathered ESCs that are also legal for FRC applications.
I'm just going to address the fact that you are complaining about the cost of ESCs... Prior to a few years ago our ESCs were stupid expensive. I seem to recall paying $120 a pop for a Victor that was much larger, not conformally coated and not as linear. And you know what? They were still worth it then. I have never had a properly connected [1] Victor die on me. 12 years of robots, many years with practice bots, numerous test beds and demo robots... Never. I've used probably 200 Victors in the last 12 years and NEVER had a failure. I'm sure you could find something that claims to have the same specs as a Victor for about $40 on HobbyKing today, but to me the extra $20 I pay to order a product that has that kind of track record is worth it.
And if you don't care about that track record [2], there's $45 SHIPPED ESC that's legal and you're not going to find an off the shelf ESC for much less anywhere. [3]
But, for fun, let's do a thought experiment on if they were legal. I would NEVER pick a team that used custom built ESCs for their drive system. Honestly, I have qualms about picking a team that uses SD540s or Sparks in their drive system this year.[4] The average FRC team can't reliably build bumpers. An ESC is at least an order of magnitude more complicated, I have no faith in their ability to do that reliably either.
Ok, now we can bring back the 3 other points...Would building an ESC be a cool summer project? Sure. Would it be worthwhile? Absolutely. Can you do better than commercial companies? Maybe, maybe not. Is there some conspiracy by VP and AM to increase profits by gouging prices on ESCs? If you really believe this, who is your tin foil hat supplier?
Seriously though, you wanna build your own ESC? Cool, do it. But don't whine about how the only reason you're not allowed to run it in competition is so AM and VP can make more profit. [5]
-s
Edit: Addressing follow on post...
Quote:
Originally Posted by ProfessorAlekM
I was looking up the encoders on AndyMark. The encoders they sell are only $20 each when you buy them in bulk (50), and they sell them for less if buy more (it says I have to ask for a quote if more then 50), but they sell them for $40 each.
And I'm sure shipping +$5-10 in profit is not $20.
They also sold every team a base kit that can't even clear any of the obstacles, so that you would then have to buy another base kit or upgrades (Making them more money).
On top of that they knew what this years competition was, and they couldn't even keep Rhino Treads in stock during build. Some supply and demand could be going on.
I know that I'm getting off-track on my own thread, but I'm trying to conserve money for our school.
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1: That's par for the course for electronics. Larger orders are cheaper. You also have to take into account that stocking and inventorying parts isn't actually cheap. I'd also bet AM has much better support for if you order 3 encoders and one of them comes DOA. A lot of companies will sell you small quantities but they don't care you exist unless you order 10000 units a year.
2: You're right, the KoP frame didn't cross the obstacles. To which I have two responses - this is a freaking engineering competition, try doing some engineering and don't expect half of the game to be solved for you out of the box. And second, yes. I think it's been discussed numerous times that AM didn't know the game until the kitbot had already entered manufacturing and it was too late to change things.
3: VexPro ran out of gears... GEARS. Which do you think is easier to manufacture and stock, a complicated high cost assembly with limited use or a freaking 54T .5" hex bore gear? Go ahead, while you think that one through I'll wait. ... back? Good, so yeah, see again, inventorying is expensive and expecting AM to keep 1000 Rhino drive kits in stock on the off chance teams would want it is messed up and would actually only drive prices up more. Furthermore, they were a new product so production probably was still ramping up and had issues [6].
And furthermore, on 2 and 3, have you MET Andy Baker? Dude ain't trying to profit off of the backs of teams.
[1] I had 2 fail at one point, because I hooked the output of one into the input of another due to mis labeled wires in the depth of a robot.
[2] Though, honestly, I trust Greg not to put out a shoddy product, I'm CAN bus this year or I'd probably have used a few Sparks outside of my drive system.
[3] I've looked, extensively.
[4] Seriously, nothing against those products, but I've lost too many matches due to partners sitting dead on the field, I want that record of reliability. This may change next year or w/ more testing.
[5] And AM/VP would be a duopoly... And I guess since there's at least 3 manufacturers it'd be a.. triopoly?Idk, I don't think that's a word, I think they just call that a competitive marketplace.
[6] Like stress issues on the pulleys... which they fixed.