[gblake]

Originally Posted by Team34Guy

It's been my experience that if you extend the deadline that it just gives you more time to not be productive. I remember being told that a goldfish will grow to a size that is comparable to size of the bowl it's kept in. Point being...if time management is the problem(which is usually the case), then you're giving them more time to mismanage. I don't know of a good solution... project management training might be an option.

Team34Guy and I are on the same page. If you extend the period, or shorten it, without altering the root causes of the problems, the outcome will change little (not zero, but little).

Originally Posted by Siri

1. No B&T means we have much more room as a community to run scrimmages. This lets struggling teams get playing/testing sooner, even if on low-cost team fields with a few other robots. Even this level of insight could help a lot of the teams we're talking about, even if they don't have a second official event for that magic.

Counterpoint 1: Scrimmages can be run at any time in the current build season that anyone wants to. However, if any team wants to pack as much untested function and complexity into their robot as is possible, that team will build (not scrimmage) right to whatever deadline exists. That is what most teams appear to be doing now. If a robot+drive station can be built in a weekend, then obviously teams can easily build robots in 5 weeks, then scrimmage, then spend the last 7-9 days adjusting what they built.

You don't need a longer build season in order to benefit from scrimmages. On the contrary, what you need is a plan that fits into whatever time is available (plus contingencies for weather, etc.), and you then need to execute that plan. The result might be a simpler robot that works instead of a more complex robot that doesn't. Mastering this is a hugely important skill for anyone contemplating a STEM career. Struggling teams will benefit far, far more from help planning and executing than they will benefit from more time to struggle.

Originally Posted by Siri

2. Using our first event as the deadline gives us all more time to help teams that are struggling/want collaboration. This would be a culture shift and would not happen automatically, but many teams (including 1640) do some limited outreach like this within the B&T deadline. More time, particularly more weekends, can help with that simply on a logistical level.

Counterpoint 2: See my other posts. Teams that want to spend time helping other teams can do it right now, and they can devote as many resources as they care to devote to that activity, right now.

My very, very strong hunch is that if the build season is lengthened, teams who aren't doing it now (because building, improving, and tweaking their own robot dominates how they spend the current 44 days of building), aren't going to think of additional days as days to spend working on someone else's robot.

If that mindset existed (in practice, not hypothetically), wouldn't most/many/those teams be building less complex robots already, so that they could spend the last week of the current 44 days helping other teams??? Color me doubtful, until teams building 35-day robots become plentiful.

Originally Posted by Siri

3. While poor time management can erase any gains, there is something to be said for the difference between unexpectedly losing 1 of 6 weeks to snow versus 1 of 9 (insert any numbers), particularly when the snow days are likely to still be early.

Counterpoint 3: If a team sets realistic goals for building a 5-week robot, manages their time well, and executes their plan; then in a year with a week of snow there will be no problem. In years without snow they will have a bonus week (yippee!).

Lengthening the build season doesn't affect the root cause of this problem. A group that is learning to correctly plan and execute a 44 day build season is going to also be a group that is learning to correctly plan and execute a 65 day build season. However, in the 65 day build season they will have X% of 65 days of planned work undone when they put their pencils down, instead of having X% of 44 days of planned work undone. It simply does not follow that more time results in more readiness.

I'm asserting that total time is not the dominant reason robots are unfinished at the end of 44 days, and I'll gladly bet a nice dinner on the topic. This was my point when I asked if anyone had a stack of anecdotes about struggling teams that were making steady progress executing a conservative plan throughout the current 44-day period, and who ran out of time because something out of their control used up more time than the cushion they built into their plan. Until those anecdotes become plentiful, again, color me doubtful.

Originally Posted by Siri

4. I won't claim this because it needs data, but I personally believe that we tend to ignore teams that truly don't meet very often. I've inspected teams that literally meet a few hours per week, end of story, for no fault of the students. I try to introduce them to VEX. There's nothing wrong with that, but there is an argument that adopting VEX/FTC's lack of B&T would open up opportunities and audiences we don't even know we don't know.

Counterpoint 4: I 100% agree that a less-complex engineering project, like VRC or FTC might be the right choice for these folks if they want to try to build a sophisticated robot (sophisticated in comparison to their on-the-field competition).

However, a few hours per week is all that is necessary to build a simple FRC robot that will perform consistently well in the hands of a practiced driver. Good scouts know that consistency is very valuable in FRC competitions. By assessing their own strengths and weaknesses, setting appropriate goals, and executing their plan; and team that only meets a few hours per week can show up ready, and be proud of doing what they set out to do.

Lengthening the build season would allow these teams to set more ambitious goals for the robot they take to each year's tournaments, but it would also give their on-the-field competition the ability to the same. If the team that meets less gets a net of 30-50 hours out of adding three weeks to the build season, doesn't their competition get 60-150 more hours?

To me that sounds like the teams that meet less (but that still show up with usable robots) fall further and further behind the other teams as the build season get longer. It that the outcome you want?

Getting on-the-fence, and initially uninterested students to try STEM activities is the reason inspiration rules in FIRST. Mentors, teachers, coaches, parents, sponsors, and student leaders can do that without letting the circus atmosphere of the tournaments drown out a group's accomplishments - and - they can do that without a longer build season. Struggling teams need less struggle (reduce the root causes of their struggles), not a longer struggle.

Blake