[kmcclary]

Originally posted by sevisehda It seems like I have one of the first [dissenting opinions]. Pretty much now a team can put just about anything on there bot except for depleted uranium and a few other exceptions.

I do feel that the main "exotic material limits" are IMHO reasonable, and should remain. In essence, they're limiting outrageously expensive materials, or materials that require "expensive tooling" or specialized expertise to use. That would give "rich teams" access to an unfair strength to weight ratio material that your average team couldn't afford. That is the equivalent of "more weight allowance" for them vs other teams, which we shouldn't allow.

A fair rule, as long as FIRST keeps it current by staying abreast with innovations in "cheap fab" technologies. Once a new technology becomes widely available, cheap, AND technologically reachable by any team, IMO it should probably be allowed. Ex: Super glue is now cheap and available everywhere, but it was once exotic, expensive, and in the past may have given a rich team an unfair advantage. If every hardware store in the world suddenly started carrying carbon fiber tubes, cloth, and a squirt tube of some new mega-glue for it for a buck, we might wish to reconsider allowing carbon fiber technologies into the contest.

Similarly, if some new megabuck "supermaterial" appears, IMHO it should probably be limited until it too becomes potentially "reachable" by all teams.

Originally posted by sevisehda
In the 'industry' most of the time there are limits on materials. Often companies only do business with certain suppliers. Or like someone pointed out only use tested materials.

"Use only QUALIFIED or TESTED materials", definitely yes, but other limits? VERY rare. The market STRONGLY awards competition, innovation and shifts in technology to reduce cost, weight, construction time, etc.. Only in VERY specific industries or in deliberately and artificially NON competitive marketplaces (for political or other reasons) are you normally limited in your suppliers. In fact, limiting competition in suppliers is contrary to normal business practice and motivation, and in many circumstances even illegal.

It IS understandable though, when a contest is SPONSORED by a company, that we have to use their products! But WHY can we drop thousands on fancy gearboxes or pick up a dozen more IFI control bricks, yet can't even buy a 50 cent air fitting from Bimba, a foot more of the SAME tubing, or another valve from Festa when we're short? There are no "additional actuators" involved, and NO safety issue in that case.

Originally posted by sevisehda
On the electronics side often there is a technology cap that stops you from upgrading components after a set time.

HUH??? Sorry, but that doesn't make sense to me. As anyone that has ever bought a home computer (or otherwise experienced Moore's Law) can see, the evolutionary rate is HUGE in electronics. What you can get, or do for a fixed amount of money expands virtually weekly, and doubles in a year or so. We've OFTEN had to stop mid design cycle and redesign, because a part (or all) of the original design was suddenly superseded by the appearance of a new electronic device or component that changed the entire cost vs profit equation. THAT's the real world for you.

BTW... Speaking of which, I fervently hope they upgrade the RC's CPU next year, or let us use some better outboard smarts. Autonomous Mode needs a major computational boost to be much more than crude, and it would be nice to have it integrated into the RC instead of outboard.

Originally posted by sevisehda Pneumatics: Hands down its mainly a safety issue. If teams could make there own or modify components there would be a risk of breakage. My suggestion is FIRST have a catalog of approved pneumatic components in which teams can buy more of items.

No question... I totally agree! But instead of messing with compiling a catalog (FIRST is severely understaffed for that), IMO it would probably be easier to simply specify a long vendor list or "an ISO 900x vendor" and/or "a [specific industry reg agency] qualification or pressure spec".

Originally posted by sevisehda Electronics: Increase the budget. Maybe something like this, 1000$ Max for electronics, 3500$ Max for materials, 4000$ Max Total. No I didn't do the math wrong, this way there is a 'shared' pot between materials and electronics. While still maintaining a lower budget for teams with limited resources.

I still don't see ANY reason to differentiate between the electronics and mechanical budgets. Expand or contract it as you wish, but make it UNIFORM. In industry, we're REWARDED whenever we can remove a piece of expensive machined hardware from a system and substitute its function in software, a cheap chip, or alternative technology. That's probably one of the BIGGEST economic motivators for both optics and electronics growth today. We're replacing mechanical switches, and complex mechanisms right and left with simpler and more reliable optical switches and micros.

Why are we SO stuck in a "make it work via complex mechanics" mindset??? I'd bet if allowed, a poor but computer and electronics savvy team could probably do WONDERS with just the kit, mostly wood and screws for structure (and enough $$ for misc hardware or structural metal where needed), a laptop on the bot, and using the rest of the budget for purely sensors and computational electronics. THAT would be a robot *I* would like to see!

You've got some great points, but I still think FIRST's simplest and best move would be to make a SINGLE "uniform" overall budget, to be split between mechanical, electronics, safety qualified pneumatics (no new actuators), sensors, (or whatever) as you wish, and allow us to buy electronics from anywhere. Say $3500 total, as before.

BTW, That would also allow for including Hobby Robot vendor electronic parts many of us already use! Most of those things are unavailable from either Digikey or Future/Active.

Aside: In a dream environment, I do wish they'd include in the kit: some ROTARY pneumatic cylinders as an option in our kit's "cylinder shopping list", and maybe toss in couple of small 12VDC solenoids you can drive with a Spike. (Should this be a different question or thread?)

[edit - added my reply to another poster]

Originally posted by Matt Leese
I think that the loosening of restrictions on what components can be used is the complete wrong direction for FIRST to go. In general, by loosening the restrictions it has made many parts of the competition easier. My problem wouldn't be with the competition being easier if that's all that happened. Because the competition becomes easier, more teams design more complicated robots. Basically, this raises the bar for everyone meaning that if you want to compete you must have a more complicated robot.

You can to some extent limit complexity simply by adjusting the "uniform limits", such as the additional hardware budget, weight, and size, versus what you're given in the kit.

Unfortunately, the more you limit things, the more you also limit the variety in the robots seen. Less weight allowed implies simpler payloads, since less stuff can be on the chassis. Less budget means robots are more likely to rely only upon kit drivetrain parts (or <shudder> the PLASTIC gears), making them look more alike. Etc.

Note I'm NOT suggesting reducing anything! I think the weight, size, and dollar limits are fine for now, and I for one LIKE seeing all the cool ideas! I'd just like to see the limits become UNIFORM, by dropping budgetary distinctions between the technologies.

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- Keith