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Originally Posted by eugenebrooks
We don't have this years rules, yet, so lets look at last years rules:
<R68> Additional Parts must be generally available from suppliers such that any other FIRST team, if it so desires, may also obtain them at the same price. (A specific device fabricated by a team from non-2004 Kit materials does not have to be available to others, however, the materials it is made from must be available to other teams.)
1) Suppose that a small business makes 30 of some part (prior to the build period) and offers them for sale to FIRST teams for use in their robot. Does this satisfy R68 above? Does the fact that only 30 exist, to be served up to teams on a first come first served basis satisfy this rule? If 200 teams want the part, and only 30 exist, is there a problem? This is not a cut and dry question in that a "generally available part" from several suppliers can run into a shortage of supply, although large numbers are produced during the year.
2) Suppose a team plans to make 30 of something, during the build period, while needing only one. It them offers the extras for sale to other teams who could make use of them. This would seem to be a different situation in that a team has made them during the build period, and therefore the "generally avaialble from suppliers" rule seems to have an exception. The team markets the parts made during the build period to other teams, and uses the proceeds to fund their team efforts for the year. What about this situation, which is quite different than the one above?
3) If the two situations above are not enough to worry about, suppose a team wants to get a head start on their robot for 2005, and starts a business to make gear boxes, wheels, and other "off the shelf parts." The team makes a few, keeps what it needs for the 2005 season, and then offers the rest for sale on the internet. Such a team would get an incredible head start on its robot, and would make some profit on the extra parts that would help pay for the rest of the teams costs. Rest assured that I am not accusing anyone of this, but this seems to be the next logical development after 1) and 2) above.
In years prior to the 2004 season, the rules allowed teams to pay machine shops to fabricate critical parts, as has been referred to by other posters in this thread. The following is what was in the 2004 rules:
<R09> Teams must fabricate and/or assemble all custom parts and assembled mechanisms on the robot by the 2004 team after the start of the Kick-off. Mechanisms from previous year’s robots may not be used, however, individual off-the-shelf components from previous year’s robots may be re-used to save the cost of re-purchase of these parts IF they meet ALL of the 2004 Additional Parts and Materials Rules.
Just what did "Teams must fabricate" mean in 2004? If a team paid a custom machine shop to fabricate something for their robot, and the custom machine shop was not a "team member" and did not "wear the team shirt", so to speak, was this within the 2004 rules?
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The following is MY opinion and does not necessarily reflect the opinion of my team.
With regards to question 1, there is no guaranty of any company having enough parts in stock for each and every single team that 'MAY' want to buy a part. If I call up Brecoflex on January 20th and say I need 8 belts and they tell me they can have them in 3 weeks, you can call them the next day and order 8, they might tell you 6 week delivery after the build period is over. FIRST has absolutely no way of policing that every vendor will have every part available to every team ready to ship immediately, its impossible, even if FIRST picked a few vendors. What FIRST appears to want is that any part that I am buying is 'able to be purchased' by all other teams. I say this because it has been this way since the days of Small Parts. We all had the same small parts catalog but if you ordered 50 flange bearings in week 1, I may not be able to get mine until week 5. We both had the same catalog, they were able to be purchased by both of us but they were not in stock in unlimited quantities. In fact due to inventory problems I might not get mine at all in the above scenario. AndyMark.biz has made it clear that they will hold a reasonable inventory of assemblies on hand just like any other corporation based on some sort of forecast. To think that they would have 1000 on hand just so that everyone who wants one can have one immediately is just silly. If you order one in week one and don't get it until week 3, your team should be building in a placeholder based on the prints in the chassis so you can continue on without stopping the build process. If AndyMark.Biz is incapable of supplying enough of these due to some huge wave of teams than again just like any other company teams have to look elsewhere. Especially in the case of AndyMark.Biz, this shouldn't be the issue that it is. My point in the last statement is that AndyMark have essentially provided the prints for this transmission and it wouldn't be very hard for any team to use local resources to build a similar model themselves from raw materials if one wasn't available through AndyMark. If Dr. Joe wants to use Dewalt transmissions and orders them up in week 1 but then Dewalt has a shortage and other teams can't get them in week 5 should Dr Joe have to take them off his robot???? NO.
As for question #2, that is definitely in the Gray Area. If I needed to make a part and one of our partner teams had some laying around, I would probably use it but account for the full cost of making it, be it in house or from an outside source depending on how my team was planning on getting it. If the parts are identical, it was made in the build period, and I have the capability of making another duplicate easily, why would I waste the resources to build another one when it is already made?
Lastly the question #3. If someone wants to make parts up at their own cost and risk for a company, then use them in 2005, are you really that concerned? As I said earlier, with the use of CNC equipment, ANY team can prototype a full chassis, drive system, manipulator, anything and have it completely rebuilt according to the rules on the first day of the build season and be totally legal. The chassis we have been playing with over the summer is totally water jet cut and can be re-made in about 1 hour of machine time. Since neither I nor anyone else out there has any clue what the game will be for 2005 as well as what the motors will be, creating a business is a total gamble.
Teams out there that are worried about companies like AndyMark somehow getting a 'jump' on the competition are out of touch with the resources that are available to many of the larger teams. Instead of worrying about this or any other company that wants to provide FIRST teams with parts, we ALL should see this as a resource. Just because AndyMark is providing a nice robust transmission doesn't mean you won't see 100 other designs this year that may have 4 speeds, may be lighter, may be smaller, you name it. BUT, if your team doesn't have allot of resources and you want to move beyond the Drill transmissions in the kit, something like what AndyMark is providing should be on your shopping list. We need to stop worrying that somehow teams out there are going to have some secret advantage because, they always have and they always will. FIRST isn't fair for everyone, some teams have 5 or 10 times the resources as others.
Again this is my opinion on this new company, I want to see more like it, maybe someone will provide a universal chassis. When it comes to the robot, I would rather see the entire organization as a whole move on to more advanced technology rather than every year 200 teams that can barely move 10 ft without breaking, yet they are proud of the design they built. This is what FIRST means to me: not only getting students excited about a project but also teaching them about the world they will have to work in after college. In todays world, mediocre doesn't cut it, you have to be better than the next guy out there to get ahead.