[Maikettei]

You know what... no one really needs to reply to me anymore, because people are still not understanding my points. You guys come on a message board and outright slander Hip-hop culture saying the clothes make people look poor and like convicts, but then turn say I'm slandering you guys?

Ben Mitchell has said

"rap poisons the mind. Any rap, all rap, even pop rap, is noise, and needs to be wiped from the planet like a disease"

This is not slander? I am sure he has not listened to all rap, especially not the conscious rap that actually says something.

Thank you Greg McCoy for at least noticing all rap is not the same. A LOT of rock music has vulgarity and such too i.e. Tool.

" the nuns down the street arent listening to tool either"

I could prove it, but I'm sure you already know its true. However, you do not see me saying rock is crap. I know there is rock out there that isn't all negativity, and I know there is rap that isn't like that.

Quain said

"Punk is better.. its not all about Anarchy and hating the government.. while that stuff exists (and is pretty dang good) theres happy, feel better, love your neighbor, we're all friends punk.. "

I would like to know why it is good for Punks to be Anarchists, but when a rapper speaks out about injustice within the judicial system it is wrong. If punk songs about Anarchy are 'pretty dang good' why can't rap lyrics be good when they aren't all happy joy joy? Also, rap has 'happy, feel better, love your neighbor, we're all friends' type songs as well.

I've already disputed that rap is not music based on the fact that it doesn't often use real instruments all the time (my acapella reference). If someone has another reason as to why it is not music, I would be happy to dispute it at a later date, and in a Private Message or something.

Judy has said this:

I think it perpetuates a negative vibe and image, not to say that negative music isn't good- I like the dark depressing rock... but it isn't music as we have already established

If it isn't the music, than what is it? Anyone can say they think Goth or Punk culture perpetuates negativity, but thats only on the surface. People who are really true to that culture and are not simply using it as the latest fad understand the true meaning of their culture. Ravers who party for the love of the music and not the love of drugs know a rave is all about PLUR. People who love hip-hop culture know its all about bringing awareness to urban-dwellers. People only see the Mass-marketed and over-produced side of these cultures, and then make judgements on that.

Do not confuse thug-types with every person who loves hip-hop. Skinheads listen to a lot of Punk music, but no ones calling all punks skinheads, are they?

The whole N-word thing is ridiculous. I did NOT bring it up. Ben Mitchell did. And you know, he can say it all he wants. But he should be willing to accept the consequence of saying it. Freedom of speech works on the basis of the person taking full responsibility of their words.

I didn't bring up the whole issue of a black person killing a white person or vice versa either. That was Fast Frank. I simply made a comment to his and all of a sudden my opinion is racist? How is my comment racist and his is not? Ben, if you really wanted to make a valid point you would say that both fast frank and my comments are racist and that our justice system is completely fair. Instead of being biased about it. You cannot overlook his comment and say mine is racist all in the same breath. For every ONE case you give me about a white male doing mega time for killing a black man, I will give you FIVE of the opposite and THREE where white men got little to no time.

And about those officers that shot Diallo 41 times... yes, they should be ashamed. And because it happened a while ago does not mean it cannot be discussed. I simply wanted to refute his claims.

I made an analogy and Judy writes this paragraph about how offended she is about my Goth comment, which I made clear was simply a generalization used to get my point across.

Now I know you're just trying to prove a point by showing other sterotypes, but I take extreme offense to the saying of goths being satanists... being goth and having many goth friends, we all find this extremely offensive and absurd.. at least with the whole 'urban' convict connection there is basis on the masses, with 'gothic satanists' there was maybe a few instances that have been exaggerated in a massive hatred to the group.

She apparently understood it was an analogy but still felt the need to explain how offended she gets when people say these things about Goths... If it is offensive to use it in any context in your eyes Judy, then surely you can understand how I feel about peoples comments on rap.

The really sad part though is that despite you being offended by stereotypes people make about you and your friends, you still stereotype others. It's very hyprocritical and not at all justified. If you don't like people judging you based on your appearance or music choices, don't do it to anyone else. It's as simple as that.

Is it really a sterotype when it seems that the masses give it some real basis?

The answer? Yes it is. The keyword here is "seems." If you don't know for sure, you don't know at all. If you had some statistics or something, you could have a better argument, but you are judging based from observations that aren't even intrusive. You haven't made an attempt to understand hip-hop culture, so how can you talk about what it means? You said you dress the way you do so people will take time to get to know you? So you can filter out those with closed minds? How can you say that when you are judging people who wear Urban clothing? Once again, that is hyprocritical.

Ben put it very well, some groups are persecuted for what they wear, why arent others? Ben brought up some very good points, where do we draw the line when a "sub-culture" promotes messages that are against the grain, and not in the best interest for a peaceful society?

Why do you want groups to be persecuted for what they wear anyway? That's not very American. You are a Goth, right? Well then kiss yours and many other cultures goodbye. EVERY culture 'promotes' something negative. How on earth are you narrowing it down to just hip-hop culture? Have I not said MANY times before all the negative things associated with other sub-cultures? Why is it that you guys can so easily glaze over these things and go back to saying hip-hop is the root of society's problems?

what does the thug look/gangsta appearance invoke in you? What do you think of? The look itself is the look of crime, who's fault is that?

How is this look one of crime? That's really wrong... So now ravers represent the 'look of drug use' and trench coats are the 'look of mass killers'? People shouldnt be judged based on their style of clothing in the first place, Judy. By saying Urban clothing is the 'look of crime' you are supporting the idea that you are what you wear. I would love to see some statistics that say the majority of the crimes commited in America are made by people wearing Urban clothes. If you cannot find some facts that support your accusation, then it is totally off base.

are all rap listeners in gangs? Probably not, but the style is in fact made to emulate that look, or perhaps the other way around

"Are all Italians in the mafia? Probably not." <---- comments like that and the above are really negative. The answer should not be 'probably not' but a resounding 'no.' You do not even know thes people and you sound as if you think the majority are in gangs.

You speak as if this culture is left completely alone. Evidently it is not based on the content of people's responses. I have NEVER said that all rap is good. But I am saying that it is certainly not all bad. Also, do not attribute hip-hop culture with bad rap. If you feel you are wrongly judged, don't attempt to make things right by passing unfair judgement on others.

When talking about people:
Fight for equality in cultures, not equality in punishment.

No one sould be punished because they have a different culture.

Now, as for Rammstein "causing school shootings" I have to defend that one. Rammstein may come off as a death metal, death to all band, however, and I say this laughing my head off, have you ever heard the lyrics?! that dedicated an album to their moms, cause it sounds great and the messages are kinda cool.


The whole thing on Rammstein... I do not ever recall saying it was the cause of those shootings. I said that people thought it was, and I thought it was ridiculous that they did. The media decided that the music was the cause without ever even learning what the band was really all about. That is exactly what many of you are doing with rap and hip-hop. Saying it is the downfall of society without knowing what it is really about.

I'm sorry if I come across as snide or rude, but I feel a lot of heat being directed toward me for simply expressing my opinion. I think it is really wrong to come on a message board and badmouth rap to no end and then say someone else is slandering people when they defend it.

I am still very annoyed with the X-cats reference. As if my opinion being different is not a good thing for the team. Like I am all that is wrong with my team because I have different beliefs than many of the board members.

In any case, I'm done with this thread. If someone has a question they want to ask, take it to Open Thoughts and provide a link... or Private Message me if it is really that crucial.