[Travis Hoffman]

Originally Posted by oneangrydwarf

As i sit in my room, with a bad cold and a sore throat, and read these forums, I am stunned by the actions of some of my peers and my fellow FIRST participants. When did these forums go from a source of knowledge sharing and community unity and become a forum of...jumping down the throat of a volunteer trying to do their job?

Josh, of course you are referring in part to my contributions to the recent discussion, which I wholeheartedly believe is a discussion, and not a witch hunt as some claim. I think what many people, including some referee volunteers who have taken offense, fail to realize, is that most of us (and search around - there are MANY mentors and students - frustrated more than bitter - who are publicly on this side of the aisle, and more on top of that who are privately on board) are not criticizing the refereering crews at each event; rather, we are criticizing the extreme discrepancies in the way the events are called across the board. I chose the penalty call against 79 at Midwest (and check the forums - that is the one and only call I've ever explicitly labeled as "bad" - based upon recent posts, I doubt I am alone in that sentiment) as the "straw that broke the camel's back". That call illustrates one extreme of the inconsistency spectrum. The other extreme could be illustrated by the on field activity at regionals like Waterloo and Finger Lakes, where many people labeled the allowable contact as damaging and excessive. Throughout the bulk of this discussion, the one common theme that has been made clear to me is that the refs at each event have done as good a job as they could of being consistent in applying their own collective interpretation of the rules. The point many of the frustrated and hurt people are trying to make is, FIRST SHOULD NOT ALLOW SO MANY DIFFERENT INTERPRETATIONS OF THE RULE TO EXIST! Furthermore, personally, I feel that it wouldn't be very hard to fix the problem NOW, with a little extra effort, communication, and coordination from the people in Manchester. This isn't one of those "grin and bear it" situations that can wait until the Team Forums. This inconsistency has had a big impact on the emotional states of many students and mentors this year, and I feel FIRST would be negligent to let this inconsistency go on unchecked. It is important for FIRST to understand NOW just how many teams and people have been adversely affected by this situation this season.

These forums are not about verbally assulting other teams or individuals, calling names, making accusations, and general negative attitudes.

This season things have simply snowballed out of hand, with thread after thread, often times one for every regional, of someone who has a problem with someone or something that went on. And rather then putting it asside and moving on and not letting it get to them, or trying to work the problem out.

I agree here. While opinions which differ from the status quo are encouraged and welcome here (ask any moderator), I've seen many cases of complaining, pointed ref bashing, and personal attacks mixed in with the constructive criticisms shared by people on these forums. I feel it is important to weigh each post individually and not be too quick to dump anything that isn't a 100% "FIRST is wonderful! FIRST is perfect!" approved post into the trash heap pile, for some of those posts and calls for reform do have merit and should be considered as valid points of discussion on these forums.

I know I am also guilty of mixing in some over the top sarcasm in my posts (G25 Freightliner, anyone?), and this probably does me no good in my attempts to have my opinions heard and considered fairly by my peers here on Chief Delphi. Trust me, I used to be a lot worse, and I do need to make a better effort to filter my more biting comments before I unleash them upon all of you. In the meantime, please do your best to take some of those comments with a grain of salt, and try to find the true meaning of what I am trying to say.

Instead, we are seeing mentor who post comments about how referees are making unfair rulings, and that they are ruining the game, and that they are breaking kids hearts, when infact 90% of the rules enforced by a referee are intended to protect the safety of those involved in the competition and ensure that the game is played in a graciously professional way.

Josh, I just gotta keep saying, on the whole, the refs aren't ruining the game. In fact, no one is flat out ruining the game. The problem is, the game definition is vastly different from regional to regional, and kids and mentors have no idea what is permissible and what isn't from one week to the next. They aren't quite sure how they should play the game - this variable is eating away at kids' confidence in their ability to execute certain strategies - they don't know if they will be flagged or not. When they attend the drivers' meeting and hear the refs tell them that the game will be called completely differently from the last week's event - how is that something that we can ignore? That cannot simply be written off as a "part of the game" - it's an artificial barrier to confidence that must be removed. The emotions of far too many students (and not quite as importantly, their mentors) have been needlessly dashed against it.

I challenge all of you to sit back and imagine how those kids on 79, 107, and 648 felt upon hearing that they received a penalty in that match. Every piece of evidence from the rules and past events, every fiber in their body told them that the strategy they devised for that match was legal, and they poured their heart and soul into its execution. Do you know what it must have felt like to feel you just defeated an alliance containing some of the most respected and talented people and robots in FIRST? What was going on in those kids' minds at that exact moment when the scores were flashed on the screen? What kind of confusion, pain, and heartache did they experience? Can you all honestly sit there and tell me you are so comfortable with the way things are right now that you'd be willing to risk having your kids go through the same kind of experience? Can you honestly tell me you are so comfortable with the way things are right now that you'd be willing to risk having your team's work bashed to pieces at an event where ramming was allowed to run rampant? Can you honestly tell me you are so comfortable with the way things are right now that you'd be willing to risk having your drive team kids get struck in head at a regional where "breaking the plane" isn't a penalty, it's almost a suggestion? As I have said, my kids have been fortunate enough to neither be the cause nor the recipient of such actions described above, and I, along with many others in this community, wish to see that they never are. These are no life lessons those who are bearing the brunt of this inconsistency are learning, folks. It's unnecessary mental anguish born out of negligence to act and shortage of communication.

What does it accomplish complaining about a call against your team?
Do you think its going to change the score? Do you think that someone at FIRST is going to read your rant full of insulting language and unconstructive remarks and pay them any attention other then writing them off as an angry rant? What kind of an example of gracious professionalism is this for your students? Now we see students arguing with referees at competitions, and posting their own threads on here saying that the referees did a bad job.

I would counter that this type of action is being driven not so much by mentors posting on these forums, as it is by the reality of the situation itself. A problem exists, one which is causing much stress among the community. Kids are kids. They are frustrated. They want to lash out. Mentors are adults. They tend to exercise restraint. I think this inconsistency situation this year is so severe that the adults' ability to do so has been compromised. The question remains - how do we direct our frustrations in a constructive manner? Some have taken the high road (in my case, I think my sarcasm is gave me a flat tire travelling down that route), but others, as you said, have chosen to use my post and others like it as an opportunity to blindly vent their frustrations with little to no constructive input whatsoever. I do hope those people who do this refrain from doing so, or at least think twice about what you post before posting it - maybe then, you can think of a more beneficial way to channel your emotions.

Gracious professionalism is a great thing, but we must all take care not to use the term GP to the point where it becomes an excuse and a shield for people to hide behind whenever there are problems that need to be fixed. I've read some absolutely beautiful comments from some kids who have posted online or PM'd me - it's refreshing to have some of these youth speak up and voice their dissenting opinions in such a constructive, logical manner. Quite frankly, they do a better job of it than I do. And they have much more at stake in this than the mentors do. They truly believe there is a problem with the game that affects their ability to play with passion and confidence, and many have eloquently stated that fact. I would never want to take that away from a kid. They, like many adults, believe a solution is needed, and they have made a decision to stand beside those who also wish to exact change for the safety and mental health of all participants. I can think of nothing more professional than to see these kids stand up for themselves and take part in this discussion. We mentors too often feel like we should be the spokepeople for these kids, that we "know better". Well, sometimes it's equally as important to LISTEN to what they have to say. You'd be surprised at what you'd hear.

I think that Chris said it best right here:............

The decision of who "deserves" to win should ideally be solely made by the kids driving the robots on the field and by the rules of a game that are as clear, concise, and irrefutable as possible. Unfortunately, this season, that seems not to be the case. It's been very difficult for many teams to know what defines "putting yourself into a position where you are in danger of the officials deciding the outcome of your match for you", because the boundary lines of that position vary so much from regional to regional. To ask teams to automatically understand what the refs are thinking from event to event is to ask the impossible. Unless teams are given some sort of FIRST crystal ball, these kids aren't psychic. Yes, we should expect some standard level of common sense to be exercised by each team as they play the game. Play it safe. Don't seek to damage others. Keep control of your arm. But I'm pretty certain that's what Team 79 was doing as they competed in that Midwest semifinal match. Look what happened to them. Did they not, according to Chris' definition, "deserve to win"? Hmm.

Instead of people congratulating others on their wins and their awards, we have threads by people saying that they should have been picked, that they were unfairly cheats out of a win, that they were the best team out there but that no body liked them because they have a high number or they don't have a cool logo. We have kids blaming referees for crushing their dreams and preventing them from going to a championship event. What does this accomplish? What are you trying to do? Your not doing anything but making yourself less attractive and less likely to be seen as a team that someone wants in their alliance. Who wants to pick a team for an alliance that is going to shoot their mouth off and insult another team and make accusations against volunteers and FIRST? That makes the whole alliance look bad. Why would you want to make your team look bad, by making a post complaining about not being picked? By saying that all the other teams made a mistake by not picking you all that you are accomplishing is showing that your a bad sport and probably not a real easy team to work with.

No arguments here. Good points.

Overall I'd say that the thing that I am seeing that is bothering me the most is just the general insults, name calling, and blaming of things on other people. Everyone needs to check themselves, think about what you are about to post, consider if its something that Woodie would say. If its not something you could see coming out of Woodies mouth, its probably not a very GP thing to say and probably not a good idea to post it. These forums are about helping each other out, and raising everyone up to a better level of competition, not all the negative stuff we have been seeing lately.

I would agree completely, only I would ask that kids and mentors believe in their own words and opinions, and not constantly try to formulate responses based upon what you think someone else would want you to say. I am sure both Woodie and Dean have made many arguments against the status quo - that is how they both got to the respected positions they are in today. FIRST would probably not exist if both of them hadn't taken the risk and initiative to stand up for a cause they both believed in and speak their OWN minds. People have a right to disagree with "the way things are", and they each have a right to do it in their own unique way. We just all have to make sure what we're saying and doing is helping foster discussion and positive change.

That is my 2 cents on the issue, I'll step off my soap box. But i know i am not alone in this feeling, others have seen this squabbling and end fighting, the needless complaining and the general attitude of disrespect for people who work very hard for everyone to make sure FIRST is the success that it is. I am not saying that no one is allowed to voice an opinion, or feel upset, or that there are not problems in FIRST that we need to fix, but i am saying that people need to check they way they are going about this. If you think there is a problem, come up with a solution and work to have the problem fixed. If you think you can do a job better, volunteer, do the job and help everyone out.

Josh Hambright

Josh, thank you for your opinions. They will undoubtedly lend greatly to the discussion that will follow. I welcome Karthik's input, too, even if he happens to disagree or even criticize me for anything I have said. I've told him in the past to tell me to shut up when he thinks my silence is warranted, and I'll consider anything he says seriously. Thank you all for taking the time to read through this painfully long post. May we all - students, mentors, FIRST, volunteers, everyone - continue to work toward achieving a more beneficial and positive FIRST experience for everyone.

Thanks,