[Jaine Perotti]

Originally Posted by KarenH

Want another extreme analogy?
Years ago, I read a news story about a group of parents belonging to some way-out religious group. A "prophet" told them that their children would grow up to be monstrous criminals (robbers, murderers, and such), so they threw their babies into the ocean to ensure that such a horrible thing would not happen. They did with their children what you seem to be suggesting that God should have done with people: total prevention of evil.

...

Even if a mother is certain her child is going to make bad decisions in life, she has no right to utterly prevent those bad decisions by preventing her child's becoming an adult (either by outright murder, or by being a "control freak").

I think the most fundamental problem that both you and Ken are having with my opinions is the fact that you are both making your opinions based on the premise that God and humans have a relationship exactly parallel to that of a parent and child. I can see why you would make this assumption - God created us, just like our parents created us. However, I do find that there are distinct differences between humans and God, and a child and their parents.

I don't believe that I ever said that God should have behaved in a way similar the irresposible actions of the parents you described above. I most certainly do not believe that God should have killed Adam and Eve. However, I think that God should have set up his relationship with Adam and Eve in a way much fairer than he did. I am not, as you seem to be suggesting, proposing that the only option that God had to prevent evil was to kill the human race, or "lock them up and throw away the key", as you said in your corollary to the analogy I made about criminals. I am suggesting that God should have done something entirely different. Human beings should have been created differently from the onset, which is what I stated earlier:

Originally Posted by BurningQuestion

I think that if God was truly benevolent, then he would not have made us to love freedom (which according to you, seems to be the reason which necessitates the granting of free will).

Read on for my explaination, because I guess it was not clear enough the first time.

According to the Bible, God created everything; the heavens and the earth. Because God was all powerful, he chose to make all of his creations in the exact way that he wanted them. He could choose exactly how he would create us. Ken, as a human being, loves freedom, and describes this sentiment below:

your life would have no meaning. You would have to do what you were told and your personal freedom would be gone.

In general humans place a high value on personal freedom.

God obviously created humans to be lovers of freedom. However, with a parent and their child, a parent has no control over the exact nature of their child. Their child will be born human, and therefore a lover of freedom and a possesor of free will - this is a fact, and the parent has no control over this matter. The key difference between God and a parent lies in how much they have control over their creations - God chose to make us lovers of freedom. Parents do not control whether or not we desire to be free, but God does.

I can see how you would think I was being too extreme if I had said that God should never have given us free will, even though we desire freedom (this is NOT what I sais, although I believe this is how you interpreted my words). If God did not give us free will, and we wanted to be free, then yes, I can see how our lives would have no meaning to us, because it would be impossible for us to pursue any personal goals and fulfill what we felt to be our purpose. In that case, I agree with you.

However, I think you missed what exactly I was questioning with my earlier statements about Christianity. I asked the question: Why did God create us to want freedom? Why couldn't he have made it so that we do not want freedom? He had the power to determine our likes and dislikes, so why couldnt he have done this? If he had made it so that we did not want freedom, then our lives would still be purposeful if he did not grant us free will. We would be happy that way, and it would be impossible for us to commit any evil. Humans happy + No Evil in World = Good in the Eyes of God.... right? It seems only fair to me that God would have created us in a way that would allow us to be kept under control, yet happy at the same time.

Can you see now the difference between God and a parent? A parent can not choose whether or not to create their child to desire freedom of will. You are correct that a parent who is over-controlling of their child, or even kills their child, for the purpose of preventing them from harming others - has serious problems and is being unjust - just as God would be being unjust if he did not allow us to have free will, but still gave us the desire for freedom.

However, since God has alot more control over the nature of humans than a parent has over the nature of their child, he should have made us differently!! He should have come up with a different way to make us feel that our lives have purpose - other than freedom of will. Parents have no control over what will make their child happy, but God does. He should not have made us to love freedom in the first place; instead he should have made us love some other aspect of life that would make us feel happy and complete. Freedom of will is extraordinarily dangerous, and God should have known that! Why did he create us to love it so much? Why did he make it so that if he were to rescind our free will, we would be unhappy? It should be the opposite - God should have given us a means to obtain happiness other than by making our own choices; something that would not be the cause of the death, torture, and unhappiness that has plaugued millions upon this planet.

Originally Posted by KarenH

Many people believe that this class of criminals is bound and determined to commit crimes again. Yet the law requires that they be released back into society when they have met the requirements of their sentencing. Should their neighborhoods be plastered with flyers warning that a Very Evil Person lives there? Should we lock them up and throw away the key? Easier still, why not just put them to death? Or is there hope that they could change?

If this analogy were truly representative of the condition that exists between humans and God, then God would not have created the preconditions for the aforesaid criminals to be criminals in the first place. God would never "lock them up" or "put them to death", because these people would never have had the option to commit those crimes in the first place (this is if God had chosen to create humans in the way that I feel he should have - if he really wanted to make people happy and live in an evil-free world). Furthermore, this thread is primarily concerned with religion, not the ethics of this country's legal system. I personally believe that criminals should be given a chance to change. We as humans have the option of change. However, I have a problem with the Christian interpretation of God when it comes to the issue of having these choices in the first place.

I don't understand why God would have created us in a way that allows people to commit terrible crimes against one another. I think that he should have made human nature differently, in a way that would not be harmful to other people, and would still leave us satisfied. The solution I proposed above is just one of many options that I feel God could have had when it came to designing human nature. Another one might be that he could have made us to have free will, but not have made it a part of our nature to believe that killing anther human being is OK. He could have made us more tolerant of those who are different, and could have made it unnatural for humans to fear what they are not familiar with - such as people with a different skin color, religion, or sexual preference. Can you imagine what this world would be like if God had not given humans the ability to hate? What if God had given humans all of the attributes that we have today, except for the one which allows us to hate? It would have saved so many people's lives if he had done that! If I were a God who cared about my creations, why would I design them in such a way that they were susceptible to hatred and violence? Why would I make them capable of killing one another? Why couldn't God have made humans peace-loving creatures, who would rather die themselves than kill another person?

This, I do not understand. This is the problem I have with Christianity.

-- Jaine