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Re: Atheists?
Ken-
I think this is where the discussion between Atheism and Religion breaks down.
Generally, the Atheist asks for proof that god exists.
Generally, the religious states that it can not be proven, only accepted.
There are people, my self included, who can not accept something that can not be proven in consistent manner. Clearly, you believe very deeply in the existence of God, and you clearly have your reasons for that belief. I don't question it and I don't want to change it. I try very hard to understand where these beliefs come from. It's a constant issue between a person I love very much and myself. Just as I have trouble understanding why such an intelligent young woman would believe so many irrational things, she has trouble understanding why I can't accept something she _knows_ is right and doesn't question at all.
I ask her why she knows it's right. 'Because I have faith, and I belive' is the usual response.
Try to understand that, to me, that statement just doesn't hold water. It doesn't make sense. I couldn't live my life like that. It's as alien a thought to me to belive as for her to not believe. There is a fundamental difference in how we view one little word. In most other respects, we are very much the same. But when the word 'faith' is concerned, we are as opposed as can be. Faith to her is the corner stone of her life. It is the first thing she thinks of when she wakes, and the last when she goes to bed. Faith to her represents everything she aspires to be; a good Christian in the eyes of God. Faith means god and god means faith. The two are intertwined and connected.
To me, faith is antithetical to the very way I live my life. Faith represents to me self dilution, blindness, a weakness. How could I believe something that goes against everything I know to be proven truth? 2+2=5. How could I just accept that although there is no proof that any of it is true? It would be like lieing to myself.
Some simply can not manage faith. I won't presume to say that all the atheists on this board, or in the world, are faithless. As has been stated, atheism is a broad term, and there are many different kinds of atheist. I'll try to just speak for my self, but I imagine my feelings are shared.
To me, faith is different from trust. Trust is earned. I trust my family, because more often then not they have been trustworthy. I trust my friends for the same reason. I even trust people I've just met, to an extent, because most people I've just met are again, trustworthy. People have proven to me that they can usually be trusted. I have evidence.
Faith isn't trust. Faith is faith.
I am told to believe in God.
Why, I ask.
You just have to believe and/or have faith that He is real, and He loves you.
Why?
Because.
The more I ask 'why', the more I am told because. Thats what my discussions usually come down to with religious friends. They can't tell me why, and I can't tell them why not. The lack of evidence simply doesn't bother them, and they can't understand why it should bother me so much.
I can trust, but I can't just have faith. Any religion requires faith at some point. You need faith to believe in God. Theres no way around it. You just have to be able to accept something as being true that can not be. You have to accept something that doesn't follow any of the rules. It's like accepting that 2+2=5 to me. I just can't do it, no matter who says it's true or how many say it's true. It just doesn't follow the rules I see everything else follow.
As always, I'm not trying to dump on anyones religion, or make statements that anyone feels they have to defend. I wouldn't bother trying to defend against anything I've said. My girlfriend can already do a better job of that, I assure you (did I mention she's intelligent?). I just wanted to maybe convey where I think some atheists are coming from. We could get stuck in an endless loop, one side asking for proof the other stating that proof doesn't matter. That doesn't accomplish anything. But it ends up happening because neither side understands why it's important to the other.
I applaud Ken for posing the questions of what being an atheist means, and answering every question put to him. Equally, I applaud everyone who has voiced their views on what being an atheist is, means and why. That takes guts these days- Atheism isn't a very popular view (has it ever been?). I especially thank everyone for keeping this thread civil, interesting and alive. I hope that this kind of discussion keeps a home here, because I think it has value (certainly more then pickup lines).
So keep up the good work.
-Andy A.
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