Ken-
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Originally Posted by KenWittlief
You metioned something about "how could I have faith in something when I know its not true?" I going to assume you are talking about the apparent conflict between science and religion - things that science says are different from what religion says. The age of the earth, or the universe, or the origins of man, evolution.
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Originally Posted by KenWittlief
Does God exist in the first place?...
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Ken, I don't really take issue with what the bible says about the age of the earth and such either. I, and I think the majorty of christains are beyond even arguing about that (although I do worry about Kansas a lot). It would be foolish this day in age to even try to argue those issues either way.
The problem is that I have to belive in God in the first place to accept the bible as anything more then a book written in the bronze age. With out god, the bible holds no more relgious meaning to me then the equivelnt text of the Anazazi. Maybe it's a historical curiosity, but you wouldn't guide your life by it, because you already know the truth about God.
The bible doesn't prove the exsistence of God, as nothing does or can. Before any other aspect of Christianty (or any thiestic religon) can be belived, you must first accept the exsistenice of God, a god, gods, ghosts, elves, talking rabbits or any number of things that simply can not be proven true or disproven. Can you beyond any doubt prove to me that elves don't exsist? Don't bother saying that no one has ever proven they do! Lack of proof isn't proof of nonexsistentice, right? Besides, elves can turn invisible and operate out of phase with the rest of the universe, which is why there are no pictures. Since you can't prove that they don't exist, you have to accept that they do, and maybe if your lucky one day one will talk to you and show you his elvish city.
Ok, so I'm getting a little to sarcastic here. But do you see my point? This is why the debate between Athisem and Religion doesn't usally get anywhere. Before you can seriously expect an athiest to accept your arguments on what the nature of the Bible, God and Christainty is, you must first provide some credibilty for God. Since that isn't ever going to happen with out some more burning bushes and booming voices from the sky in our everyday lives, I'm not liable to smack my self on the head and say 'oh, now I get it! God exsists because Ken just told me he does!'
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Originally Posted by KenWittlief
As for faith - faith is an emotional issue, not a scientific one. Can you love someone unless you have faith in that person, and faith in human nature? Loving someone and trusting your life to them is not logical. You cannot prove that your loved ones love you back (a problem that wealthy individuals often face). You could test someones love: put them in a contrived situation and see how they respond (but that would be a creepy thing to do - if you love someone you have faith in them, and you dont test them).
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Thats where you and I disagree. I'm sure a lot of people disagree with me, but the distinction I've made is very real to me. Faith is blind, trust is earned. I don't have faith in people, I have trust. Those I love have proven to me, not in a contrived test but every day through action, that they are trustworthy. Again, I draw a very clear distiction between trust and faith. I apply to that to my life alone, but it makes a whole lot of sense to me. I don't expect you or anyone else to completely understand what that means because I know I don't articulate it well. But, faith is a word that means 'trust in the untrustworthy' to me.
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Originally Posted by KenWittlief
If love is being poured out on you like a river, it must be coming from somewhere.
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Who said anything was being poured onto me? It's using these metaphorical assertions, and speaking of them as fact, that really bug a lot of atheists. I've never seen or heard of love being poured onto anyone, and I don't understand what you even mean by it. I don't know what you mean when you say it must be 'coming' from somewhere. I've always thought that the love I feel, like any emotion I might feel, is rooted in my mind, and my mind alone. No outside forces, no deity's, no voices in my head. My love is my own, and doesn't come from a god. I rather think that the notion that love only exists because god is pouring it out of a bucket on us cheapens the emotion.
-Andy A.