[KenWittlief]

Andy,

Lets look at this from a logical and scientific angle then. If you find an ancient document, that contains either historical or scientific information, or information and insite into human nature

then the information it contains is either correct and accurate, or its wrong. Would you agree with that?

For example, if this ancient document says the universe had a beginning, before the beginning matter, energy, empty space and even time itself did not exist, and then the universe was created 'from nothing' - we can check into that - we can study the universe and see if it always existed, if its in some repeating cycle, or if something like the big-bang brought the universe into existance 'from nothing'.

Now if this ancient document says that information was gathered by astronomical observation, or was obtained from 'someone' who communicated it to us, that does not change the validity of the information itself, right?

Hitler made this mistake. He rejected Einsteins work and theories, because he would not accept 'jew science' - he rejected the facts because he rejected the source.

What am I getting at? The bible contains incredible insite into human nature. When Jesus preached to the masses the law of the land was an eye for an eye, and justice was brutal - society was brutal. People were amazed when He explained the rules existed to show us our own weaknesses and shortcomings, but the way to live together is through love, forgiveness, reconcillation and kindness. Love for our friends and love for our enemies.

It was a totally outragious concept at the time. Now we have lived for hundreds of years with the 'golden rule' - so it seems more natural for us, but back then it was new information, and in other parts of the world it is still a foreign concept.

So heres the thing: is the information correct? Are the teachings of Jesus the best way to live? If you put the concepts to the test and live that way, is your life better or worse?

And if its better, then does it really matter where the information came from? If the knowledge of human nature is accurate then it stands on its own.

Prophecy in the biblical sense had three components: a prophet would communicate: 1. this is how it was, this is how we got to where we are now and 2. this is how it is now - this is whats going on and here are your options and 3. this is whats going to happen next: if you do A then BC&D will happen, else if you do E then XY&Z will happen

if we cant be certain about the past part, and the future part hasnt happened yet, all we have to go by is the now part - that we can test. If you follow eastern religions your life will go in one direction. If you believe in karma then your life and your interactions with others will go another way. If you treat people the way you would want to be treated (regardless of how they treat you) then you are on a different path

Is this proof? is this evidence? Science says drop a hammer and it will fall and obey F=MA. Jesus says if you do A then BC&D will happen.

So you try A and you see BC&D happening. you watch other people doing E and you see them experienceing XY&Z

is that proof? Proof of the information, yes. Proof of the source?

if the application to your personal life proves to be correct, then does it validate the source? Does the source really matter?

I guess at some point you would have to figure out how a carpenter and a couple of simple fishermen 2000 years ago had such a profound insite into human nature, or how Moses knew the universe had a beginning. If the information did not come from them, then from where?

But the information itself stands on its on merits.