[sciguy125]

I'd like to make one final post before I retire from the discussion. I'm not trying to argue anything else, I just want to clarify my position.

I haven't been arguing that people that hold engineering degrees didn't work hard, or that they should not be respected, but rather that a degree isn't what makes you an engineer. I remind you of the question I posed earlier: Which came first, the engineer or the engineering degree? Gates droped out of college. Does that mean that he wasn't an engineer (I don't want to argue that a programmer isn't an engineer, if that's what you're thinking...just go with me for a second)? What about the engineers that were around before there were engineering degrees? Is it the degree that makes the engineer? Or is it that the engineer seeks the engineering degree?

(By making the following comments I am in no way trying to deemphasize the achievements that are also represented in the pieces of paper.) An engineering degree is a piece of paper that tells the state that you are an engineer. I don't see why you need a piece of paper to tell you that you are an engineer. Take a marriage certificate for example. It tells the state that you are married and that you can be held responsible for all the responsibilites that come with the title. Do you need a piece of paper to tell you and your spouse that you are married? I thought marriage was about making a commitment to be there for each other. If two (maybe more - I don't want to argue this point though) people say that they are married, but don't have this special piece of paper, I will respect their marriage as any other. What if they have a religious ceremony (or whatever their religion requires) but don't bother to get a state certificate? If they made the commitment to each other, I don't see why they need state approval. While they are not legally married (and thus don't get the legal benefits that come with the title), aren't they still married?

I feel that engineering is the same way. If you uphold the "philosophy" of "engineering", why do you need a piece of paper to say that you are an engineer? I'm not saying that you should have the same respect as a degree holder (they worked hard for that), but why can't you say that you are an engineer?

(In the following statments, I am not trying to hide or ignore the inherent dangers that come with the situation. I am also not saying that this specific situation is plausible or even a good idea. I just want to pose a thought experiment.) Let's say that you find yourself a doctor. He treats you of your ailments and you feel great afterwards. You later find that he does not hold a medical degree. Will that make you lose your trust in him? He did his job as a "doctor", didn't he? If you feel better, he obviously did a good job of it too. Does he really need the special piece of paper to say he is a doctor if he can do his job?

Again, I am trying to say that you don't need to have a degree to be an engineer. You may need a degree to be a professional engineer (as in an a person who works as an engineer, not necessarily a person with PE certification), but an engineer is someone who engineers. A person who programs is a programmer. A person who cooks is a chef. A person who takes pictures is a photographer. A person who delivers mail is a mail carrier. A person who engineers is an engineer. Unless you hold proper training/certification (or whatever else your field requires), however, you are not a professional in the field.

I'd like to sit here and refine myself a little more, but this library computer is going to kick me off in a few mintues and I have class soon. I hope that I have made myself clear in what I have been able to say in the last hour though.

I understand what all of you are trying to tell me, but I don't completely agree. I don't expect you to agree with me either, just understand where I am coming from. I ask you one final time to wrap up my points: Which came first? The engineer or the engineering degree?