Quote:
Originally Posted by Cody Carey
The notion that a scorer can score over a defensive bot of any kind is ridiculous. If that bot can move, It can keep you from scoring. The smallest height possible, 4', covers one spider leg, and makes it nigh impossible to score on another. That is with the defensive bot sitting still in front of the spider leg(s).
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That notion is not ridiculous by any means on the imagination. While I agree that a vast majority of bots will not be able to do it effecitvely, several of the upper tier of teams will probably have that capability. And there is no guarantee that the defensive bot (no matter how powerful) will have the ability to move the offensive one, or will even be oriented correctly to do so (as he may be, as swampdude has decribed, oriented in order to strafe in front of the goal). There is also no guarantee that the defensive bot will be 4' tall (and if it is, in many situations, it could just be scored over for the upper two levels).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cody Carey
I know for a fact that if you give me a drivable robot base that is 12" off the ground, and set me in front of one of the best scorers, I will be able to stop them from scoring. Period. There are little things that you can do, like catch their bot in the sweet-spot on their corner... and when you do, they can't score.
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While some aspects of this statement are typically true (namely rotational defense by attacking a bots corner), they are not always. Particularly shutting down a powerhouse offensive team with a drivable base. Many of the upper tier at each regional will be able to outrun a kitbot, easy. Many of the upper tier at each regional will be able to push around a kitbot, easy. Many of the upper tier in FIRST will have features to try and prevent rotational motion (and many teams have for years). Many of the upper tier in FIRST will have turrets to rapidly adjust for rotational motion that may occur (I can't wait to see what 27 comes up with this year
). If the opposing alliance can commit a large enough defensive effort to any of these upper tier bots, good luck for them scoring enough to win.
As was alluded in this thread earlier, if you're playing defense (at least the type discussed in this thread), it means you're not scoring. By the pure definition of defense (not the type mentioned in this thread), the offensive bot is also playing defense then (by forcing the other alliance to commit a bot(s) to defense, you're reducing their total possible score). This kind of "counter-offense" is evident through statistics from previous years.
For example, 1261 was by no dream of the imagination a defensive team. They were a pure offensive team, with a fast swerve and long-range shooter. Yet, pre-championship, they were ranked (statistically) as the 51st best defensive team, only allowing 20.33 points/match. By contrast, team 306 (sorry to pick on you Cody), a self-admitted defensive team (and quite a good one at that) was ranked 869th, allowing 39.39 points/match.
Some other primarily offensive teams of note, 1114 was ranked 195th, allowing 26.08 points/match, 254 was 136 @ 24.5 points/match, 968 was 67th at 21.13 points/match, and 384 was 86th with 22.4 points/match. Some other of the top notch defensive teams were 710 ranked 861st allowing 39 pts/match, 522 was ranked 750th with 35.81 pts/match, 1816 was ranked 883rd allowing 39.67 pts/match, and 1902 was ranked 629th allowing 33.54 pts/match. What does this mean? Even during a game that had a huge emphasis on actual contact defense, the best defense is often a strong offense.
Now this will be especially true this year, as every spider leg scored reduces your opponents top potential score for that row and that column by a factor of 2. Additionally, spoilers may or may not play a large roll (their importance will probably grow later in the season, and later in each tournament), and are placed by teams that have the capability to place ringers (and more legs you can score on, more flexibility those teams have in placing them).
As for who is ultimately right in this debate, only time will tell. Without a doubt, scores will be low during the first couple weeks (which may or may not be due to defense). Without a doubt, defensive bots will find large roles in all the East Coast regionals. Without a doubt, at IRI and Championship there will be a shift towards a more offensive alliance (which does not mean higher scores). Without a doubt, a smart "defensive" team (such as the robots displayed by 179, 306, and a few others so far) will have a very prominant OFFENSIVE role when all is said and done (and not just through bonus points).