Quote:
Originally Posted by dlavery
Sorry, Travis, you don't get off that easy. I never said the rule required a lot of thought to understand. Nor did I say you had to think a lot to understand the meaning of the rule. What I did say was that if you considered the situation carefully, you would understand why the rule has to be the way it is. The rule is easy to understand. What requires some thought is trying to understand why the rule is necessary in the form it has. Read the discussion above, and try the same exercise. You are a smart guy, and you don't need to have the answer spoon-fed to you. Put yourself in the place of the GDC, and think about the information that was available at the time the rules were written (and more importantly, what was not available). Think about the variability of all the factors that are affected by the rule. Think about the position of the referee when calling the rule. Like I said, you are smart and you will get it. And when you do, that enlightenment may lead to understanding of why other rules are the way they are.
-dave
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This is fun - Clash of the Bullheaded Titans?
So we've established that according to Dave, I'm not stupid. My life is now complete!
But you are still missing MY point. So the refs have to follow the rules. Of course. Please identify the exact place in the following CURRENT rule definitions (remember, Q/A responses don't count as rule definitions - I've heard no one refute that) which makes it
crystal clear to Joe Manualreading Referee that the YMTC situation should be scored in favor of Bluealliance. I'm waiting!!!
<G55>
Deflated GAME PIECES - A GAME PIECE that has been deflated is evaluated the same as
one that is inflated when determining the match score. Intentionally deflating a GAME
PIECE is considered field damage (see <G34>).
<G56>
ROBOTS in HOME ZONE - ROBOTS score bonus points at the end of the match if they are
entirely in their HOME ZONE, not in contact with any element of the field (carpet, alliance
station, goal, etc.), not supported by a GAME PIECE, and the lowest point of the ROBOT is
higher than 4 inches and/or 12 inches above the carpeted field surface. The number of
bonus points an ALLIANCE receives is based on the total number of ROBOTS satisfying
these conditions. Each ALLIANCE ROBOT entirely in their HOME ZONE at the end of the
match is eligible to receive the following bonus points:
Each ROBOT between 0 and 3.9 inches above floor level - 0 bonus points
Each ROBOT between 4.0 and 11.9 inches above floor level - 15 bonus points
Each ROBOT 12.0 inches or more above floor level - 30 bonus points
************************************************** *****
If I used my Dave-given intelligence as a referee (I really should one day) and I came across this exact YMTC situation in a match, and I went to my handy dandy rulebook, I'd feel that nothing in G55 and G56 told me exactly what to do, so I'd have to make a judgement call. And using my astute powers of judgement, I'd declare that a ringer separated from the lifted bot by at least 2 distinct rampbot support points (the left and right drivetrain contact patches) does not constitute being "supported by the GAME PIECE". Red gets the bonus. Blue feels happy that they didn't back into a hollow victory and accepts their defeat with GP aplenty.
Problem #1 - Eliminate the uncertainty and confusion. The Q/A isn't the rulebook - you said so yourself! Gah, what's so hard about incorporating the Q/A "guideline" into the official rulebook? If the GDC is really all about penalizing all possible situations, no matter how absurd, just so the refs don't have to think and discuss and commiserate and decision-make as much, put the "transitive" clause in there and be done with it........Ya know what - I can't stand rules that exclude everyone from enjoying something just because of the risk that something really bad could extremely infrequently occur. Ironically, many of these rules often exist in society (and more and more at schools) because of LAWYERS and the constant threat of litigation. I think most people feel the same way. What a downer way to regulate. If the GDC is truly afraid of inconsistent referee calls regarding G56, then instead of flat out excluding bonus points for every possible "supported by game piece" arrangement, let's build some common sense protection into the rules. Right now, as defined, <G56> permits either style of "official" interpretation - which path will the GDC choose to follow?
Problem #2 - Even if we are supposed to hold the Q/A decrees to be sacred, WHAT HAS BEEN DONE TO COMMUNICATE THIS TO EVERY REF CREW AT EVERY COMPETITION? To my knowledge (and I could be wrong - I'm hoping my fellow competitors at Pittsburgh can chime in here), this rule as "clarified" by the Q/A was NOT called in Pittsburgh. Maybe this YMTC situation never happened to force such a call, but I don't remember seeing it. So all regional-goers, other than at GLR, where have you actually seen the refs make this YMTC in favor of blue? Lets get some of those FACTS Dave talks about on the table.
Problem #3 - What has been done to communicate this "ruling" to all FIRST TEAMS? I'd think a Team Update would be a good start, which would actually make this a "rule" instead of a "suggested course of action". And there's always the "have the head ref highlight gotcha-type rules at the beginning of the day" method, something that works whenever the head ref isn't inventing the rules he's describing. I'd venture a guess that not nearly every team has someone reading Chief Delphi, and even then, not everyone cares enough to read the YMTC threads. Same thing goes for the Q/A. I would hope the GDC isn't using these as its sole communication channels. I don't have a problem with teams losing due to rules that were properly communicated to everyone. Please though, for the love of all that is graciously professional, don't railroad a finals alliance into an unexpected defeat right after they think they've just accomplished something truly amazing - quit taking risks with the psyches of these kids. I'm kinda bummed/p.o.'d that no one seems willing to stand up and take a few simple steps to ensure that e v e r y o n e is aware of these "interesting" gotcha-type rules before the competitions start.
Update and communicate! Passive communication inhales audibly!
By the way, notice how the gap in the poll has recently increased significantly in favor of red! Woohoo! Vote for red!!!! We have cookies!!!