Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob
In general, situations like this and others that occurred on the Curie and Archimedes fields are the result of what appears to be a "just let them play" approach to refereeing this year's game. It is hard to blame teams for what you might perceive as playing outside the rules when the referees are standing right there and allow them to play that way. As much as it hurts some, I say this is part of the game.
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I think most agree that some (not all) refs did take the "just let them play" approach - which I don't mind in a very close gray area/tough call situation, but not when the rule violation is obvious. However, I would disagree that "it is part of the game". Mabye it is part of "life", but the game is the "game" as it is designed and written.
One thing I keep hearing, which I'm going to comment on even though I probably shouldn't....is that I don't get all the talk about whether something is incidental or intentional.
1. Part of that debate does not even matter - if something is against the rules (such as hitting teams outside of the bumper zone repeatedly while playing defense), then it's a penalty, no matter if it was intentional or not.
2. We need to give FIRST teams and the drivers/coaches of these robots a little more credit. These aren't clueless people who are "surprised" when an extended arm (not being used to play offense or score) hits another robot up high (out of the bumper zone) or tips it over. Especially playoff teams that have clearly discussed and set on a defensive strategy and/or veteran teams who I'm fairly sure understand the physics of what will likely tip another robot over when they choose to raise/extend their arm while interacting with another robot (and not attempting to score) instead of keeping it down.
3. Last, in the same line of thinking of giving the teams more credit than some of these arguments seem to:
FIRST teams are smart. FIRST teams adapt. FIRST teams push the limits to whatever is allowed. If the referees called the rules as written, and penalized teams at the regionals and in the Championship qualifiers for using extended arms for defense, hitting outside the bumper zone, overly agressive ramming and pinning/tipping robots - the teams would have stopped doing it for the most part.
In some of the examples people have posted here on CD, I don't really hold the "teams" accountable for damaging or tipping other robots. Since I saw it first hand, I'll comment on the Archimedes example posted in another thread:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery
There were incidents of questionable nature on all four fields during the elimination rounds, 2 of which directly affected champions. The most egregious of which happened in this incident on Curie and on Archimedes. While I have not yet been able to find video (or get it from teammates) of the incidents on Galileo or Newton, but I will post video of 254 being tipped on Archimedes (no call).
http://www.youtube.com/v/Z2XmhRZmMsM |
Anyone who saw it was expecting the 494/254/997 alliance to move on after they were tipped by 107 towards the start of the second semifinal match (they won the first 140-4). It was probably one of the easiest to call examples of that the entire season. When the penalty wasn't called, every person standing around me knew exactly what was going to happen in the third match - the very same thing - you could go to the bank (or vegas) that 254 was going to be tipped very early in match 3, which they were. If teams know the refs aren't going to enforce the bumper zone or tipping rules, then of course they are going to take more chances playing defense. If they knew there was a likelihood of the rules being enforced and a penalty being called, I know that most of the teams would adjust their play accordingly.
Luckily, unlike some other previously discussed situations, in the Archimedes example I didn't hear of any hard feelings from the tip - for one because nothing on the 254 bot was damaged or torn apart (makes it easier not to be upset) and second, because the 494/254/997 alliance knew the issue was with the penalty not being called, not with the team playing defense. Plus the tip in the 3rd match was much more similar to the tip on Einstein, which is to say it certainly fell into the category of a judgement call and could have gone either way, as oppossed to the tip in match 2.
Important note here (since I do have an affiliation & history with 254) - in NO way am I implying 233/71/179 would not have won Archimedes. I think they had the best alliance and still would have won the division. Would have been a great matchup which many in the division were expecting and waiting to see, but I still think the right alliance came out of Archimedes. Hope I didn't just manage to offend either the 494/254/997 or 386/85/107 alliances.
Either way, the point is that FIRST teams will adapt if they know the refs are calling certain rules or actions and giving penalties - just as the teams will adjust their play to be much more agressive when they realize the rules aren't being enforced. What clearly caused even more frustration is that the rules at one regional or on one division field would be enforced the exact opposite then on one of the other fields. Teams expect (and most of us would argue deserve) two things - rules to be enforced as close to as written as possible (which will never happen 100% of the time - part of being human - and I believe most teams get that) and rules to be enforced consistently (or very close to). I don't think many would argue that either of those goals was even close to being achieved this year.
Is there any point harping on this? Not for the 2007 season, no - it's over and nothing's going to change. However, any organization needs to acknowledge what worked and what didn't so it can improve - so hopefully enough discussion and consensus on recognizing the inconsistencies of the rule enforcement this season (and things like the match algorithm) will help make things much better and improved next year for all the teams. The teams work too hard and spend too much not to have the play of the robots & teams decide the matches.
Very sorry for the long post - just couldn't bite my tongue on the incidental vs intentional comments anymore.
Hope everyone has a great weekend and a great off season!