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Unread 25-04-2007, 22:38
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Re: [FVC]: Longer competitions

Blake,

I am not sure I fully follow exactly what you are trying to say here. For that matter I am not sure if you followed what I was trying to say. My comments are certainly not meant to be cryptic. To lay some background here, probably you and other individuals were unaware that after the pilot season of FVC, FIRST made a decision to have the FVC competitions follow in many regards the FLL tournament structure. I am not familiar with the full workings of FLL either since I came from FRC and now doing FVC also. However, knowing this, I have taken it upon myself to learn more about the FLL program in order to be better informed about what I believe is transferable and what isn’t. A discussion on the organization of FLL tournaments is more than we should get into here. There may be just as many people who have no idea about the organization of FRC if their prior experience has been FLL and FVC. Although I doubt this since Chiefdelphi is definitely centered around FRC, but you never know. For the most part I believe that most people that are reading through this thread has some knowledge about all three programs. If there is something specific that can elaborated on just let us know. Either those more knowledgeable or I can jump in and provide background info.

I have to point out though that I never said there was a need for a “multi-tiered tournament structure once the number of teams rises much beyond the current FRC numbers”. I also didn’t say that “things should work like FLL, but not exactly like it”. Hopefully knowing a bit more about the background of FVC as well as FLL will help you understand the comment. FLL has somewhere around 8000 teams compared to around 1500 FRC teams. If my memory is correct, over the past 3 years FLL has also added close to 500 teams per year. That growth potential definitely exists with FVC. Maybe not to the exact same numbers, but there would definitely be growing pains with those kinds of numbers. To organize, support and run the number of tournaments needed to accommodate that many teams would be a monumental task for FIRST. Now enters the affiliate partners. For the FVC program these partners undertake the organization of local and State tournaments, which may include volunteer recruitment, securing a venue as well and potentially seeking sponsors. Again with numbers like these, its not practical to have the top alliance from every tournament go to the championship. Therefore local tournaments determine which teams go to State tournaments, and the State tournaments determine who goes to the championship. It is entirely possible that if the growth continues there may even be another tier whereby the State tournament qualifies you for some type of Regional tournament. I’m just throwing the regional tournament comment out there because although its not a reality for FVC, it could very well come to that.

So what I am saying is that as much as you would like to have the learning curve shortened by using ordinary terminology, the fact is that this is pretty much ordinary terminology for the majority of posters here. I know I have read many of your posts regarding programming and the use of sensors and most of that ends up going over my head since my background is Mech. Engineering. Nonetheless, I would expect that the majority of posters that read through your posts find them informative, useful and totally appropriate including me at times.

Your point is well taken though… so when appropriate I will refrain from using references to FLL without laying some background.

But I can’t guarantee I’ll always be on my best behavior.


Quote:
Originally Posted by 1885.Blake View Post
This comment by me has little to do with rwsmay's specific quote above; but is a more general one to folks discussing FVC.

Saying FVC is/isn't, should/shouldn't, can/can't follow an "FLL model" appears to be a convenient shorthand for many folks; but as someone not familiar with FLL, I don't see much value in the comparision.

Saying things should work like FLL, but not exactly like it, carries a ton of baggage that sows confusion when the differences aren't all explicitly described as part of the statement's context.

Also, things like needing a multi-tiered tournament structure once the number of teams rises much beyond the current FRC numbers is hardly something the phrase "like FLL" expresses uniquely or clearly. Instead the need is just common sense; and, at least in my mind, it as much like US professional and amatuer football, baseball, swimming, soccer, beauty pagents and all other big competitions; as it is like FLL.

So, am I saying the work that has gone into making FLL a success should be thrown out and ignored? No! Please don't take that away from this suggestion.

Am I saying that a growing organization needs to avoid falling into a habit of speaking in shorthand that everyone thinks means the same thing to all people in the organization - but probably doesn't....? Yes.

Am I saying that a growing organization needs to use ordinary terminology to discuss ordinary concepts (so that all readers who are considering joining or contributing don't have to climb the learning curve of learning to decode cryptic references to other programs). Yes.

The bottom-line hint here is that folks involved with FVC who are also familiar with FLL will find a broader and more receptive audience for their suggestions, and be more clear about what they mean, if they are able to expresss those suggestions without using the "like FLL" phrase.

Blake
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