[Roger]

Y'know, this is another reason why I don't like sports, and politics for that matter. I am neither a good debater nor follow sports and politics, but I just call it as I see it. I try to give my reasons on a variety of points, and everyone jumps on only one part and misses the others.

The "Like politics, I am sure if the Patriots did it ... what makes you so sure no other team does it too?" statement is more of cynicism than "ethical indictment" (whatever that is). I did not say it is okay to cheat. (It isn't okay to cheat -- is that plain enough for you?) I am not "rationalizing" or "justifying" why they cheated. (I don't know why and neither do you -- it was never publicly explained.) I also did not "suggest" it's okay to cheat if they had a good reason. (They never gave a reason at all.) And yes, as my "local" team, I was embarrassed by what happened and angry that it did happen. (Only a little -- I don't bask in their glory, so I can't be personally embarrassed by their stupidity either.) I was also surprised it did happen, why a team such as the Patriots needed to do this.

And I certainly did not mean to imply that they should do it because (as you say) "everyone else is doing it." That is not what I said. Quite the opposite. I'll repeat my statement: If they did it, what makes you so sure no other team does it too?

What you also seem to be missing from the rest of my statement is that the Patriot's coach -- whatever his name is -- got caught, and he admitted to it right away and paid the fine. He didn't deny it. He didn't cover it up. He didn't point fingers. And it was the coach that did it -- not the team. Not the quarterback, not the waterboy. Nobody else. Don't blame the team for what one person did. Do you like getting blamed because of something your friends did?

My cynicism may go on to say that "they cheated" on the first game, they got caught, and now everyone is watching them carefully for any more cheating -- and yet they still win. It seems to me that that alone says a lot.

This year the Patriots happen to be a powerhouse team. Last year they were good, but didn't get to the Super Bowl. A couple of years ago they were a joke. Big deal.

When you're talking sports, talk about how team A has a better QB , or team B has better defense, or whatever sports people talk on about. Talking about how the team owner screwed my city so the whole team must be bad doesn't convince me that either team will play better on the field.

In this case, to get this thread back on track, from what I've seen of the Patriots (meaning when I stay awake watching their games), I think they have a good QB with good protection to throw the ball to what-ever-his-name is (Moss?). They also have some oddball plays that are unusual enough to get them ahead. (That's about the only good reason to watch football, anyway.) They also have a defense that keeps the other team (at least the one from last week) from scoring touchdowns but not the goal kicks. I'd point out all the things about the Giants (and I only know that it's the Giants from reading this thread!) but I have enough to do I can barely remember what my local team has done.