[gblake]

I ... am against throwing a match.

Would you prefer to throw the tournament?

This is really a horrible thing to do. That does not however mean it is right and it is pretty horrible for someone to do it.

Obviously then, if it is horrible to try to win the field competition part of a tournament, all teams should stop trying to win.

FIRST is FIRST for a reason. We are supposed to hold ourselves to a better standard than all the other kinds of competitions.

Somewhere along the line I got the impression that using brain power well and celebrating the skillful use of science and mathematics was part of that higher standard. I guess I was wrong about that.

Knowing that there are teams out there who care just about winning as opposed to having fun and getting a good experience.

You are right, we should stop keeping score during matches and play them only for fun and for the benefit of the audience. We should stop using success in the tournament as a way to recognize teams that have worked hard to understand fully how the tournament system works and how to use a well-designed and built robot to maximize their chances of being in the winning alliance.

... trying to finagle your way into a better position just seems against all the principles of FIRST doesn't it?

See above - Also, since when did meticulous analysis of the mathematics and social interactions of a tournament become known as "finagling"? In my math, science and engineering studies it has been known as "optimizing".

This whole throw the match idea leaves a very bad taste in my mouth... you should be putting forth you best effort every time you enter the field.

Then I think you agree with sometimes letting your opponents outscore you. Isn't that required if you are putting forth your true best effort toward obtaining your end-goal (which is the end-goal of pretty much everyone)? I believe that in the scenario we are discussing, the best effort is the one that is the result of taking the time to carefully and rigorously analyze the expected value of each of your options, and then choosing to carry out the option that both maximizes your chance of reaching your end goal and is supported by your alliance-mates.

Problem with thread like this one you've started... the fact that you even thought of such dirty tricks would have me and others wondering for a very long time if you and your team really tried your best in a losing match.

"dirty tricks" - Please - I think not.

Its hard to have confidence in a alliance partner that thinks of such tricks to help their position. I know this thread will be in the be in the back of everyones mind when your team is in an alliance with them. It would be in mine.

Would you rather ally with a team that didn't think clearly enough to realize the consequences of their actions? I'll bet you that a team that wasn't aware of the ramifications of the situation we are discussing would be prone to overlooking similarly subtle strategic options on the field during matches. That would make me nervous.

Such things might happen in other sports... I really hope it never happens at FIRST (happy?).

So you hope teams don't analyze their strategic options completely and/or if they do you hope that they pick a second-best strategy? That seems odd.

The answer to this question really depends on what motivates one to take part in FRC. If you are motivated by the trophies, then sure, go ahead and throw the match. While you are at it, why not ignore all the other rules that are based upon sportsmanship and honesty? I mean, if winning is the motivation and you can win by being unsportsmanlike or dishonest or throwing matches... then go for it. Just don't expect to have a whole lot of fun with FIRST because FIRST isn't about the trophies, or even the robots.

Some people are motivated to take part in the field competitions of FIRST because it gives them a chance to out-think their opponents. They see the tournament as a battle of wits as much as a battle of engineering. They cooperate like crazy off the field and they compete like crazy on the field. For some bizarre reason, they expect to be congratulated (perhaps by occasionally earning a trophy) when they think clearly, and they successfully work well within the system, to maximize their chances of earning the title of winning alliance. The rules of FIRST tournaments are not the same as are used in many other tournaments/sports. The strategy Fred brought up is a well-thought out response to the rules that do govern FIRST tournaments.


Don't even get me started on the assertions about sportsmanship and honesty.... Grrrr.

On the other hand, I do have to add a small caveat to the "always do your very best" in every match. It is often necessary to risk doing less than your best in a particular match to ensure that you do better in future matches or future years. ...

Or consider that you have two drivers. One is definitely better than the other, but is graduating. The other is less experienced, but will be around next year. Do you pull the better driver to give the less experienced driver some experience that will make your team better next year? That would mean that you are playing at less than your peak ability, but is both justifiable, and sportsmanlike... so long as that is your motivation for changing drivers.

Hmmm, so it is OK to underperform now in order to increase your chances of doing well next year, but it is not OK to underperform now to in order to increase your chances of doing well 30 minutes from now? How odd.

I'm not quite sure I buy the "ask your partners" approach... although it is by far more acceptable than just not showing up... simply because if "throwing the match" is something you don't think you should do, it doesn't suddenly make it right to do it just because your partners are on board. Conversely if you think throwing the match is the right thing to do, then you probably aren't too worried about your partners to begin with.

Once again, if the likely alternative is "throwing the tournament"; I would think that letting your opponent outscore you in a match when your allies support that strategy would be the correct thing to do.

Blake
PS: Remember, these are my personal opinions. I enjoy assisting several teams near my home and their members all have widely varying responses to this question. Plus, I think it is a very nice topic for a challenging debate. Intense, non-personal debate is healthy.