Quote:
Originally Posted by dlavery
Then, the same political forces that shoved this pilot program through the system will demand that the "successful" model be adopted across the country. The same concerns that tried to counter how this pilot was structured will be unable to stop this next effort. And two years from now, we will all be playing at district events, whether they are appropriate for our states or not.
Sorry, but that smacks of "well, if Dean says so, then it must be right, so we can all stop talking about it now." I could not disagree more. The whole reason this thread was started was to get people talking about the pros and cons of the new idea, to see the reaction, and understand the concerns. If, as I suspect and discuss above, this is going to become the new national model of how the entire FRC program will be structured in the future, this whole topic needs a lot MORE discussion, not less.
-dave
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More discussion questions in response to Dave's suggestion to talk MORE.
Please do not take these as a slam on the pilot, these are serious questions.
Questions, that would probably have been addressed had there been some level of communication in the planning phases of this venture. As a Michigan team leader, I must object to a "no news until it becomes news", (translated "need to know basis") position. We are supposed to be a community, and secrecy, deliberate or not, only serves to undermine that sense of community and creates a greater potential for friction.
It was posted that "The new system will definitely be much better at promoting the best robots"
Does this mean we are moving to where the "robot" and the "robot competition" is what will matter and count most for teams to "advance" to the championship?
One of our Founding Father's once said "it's not just about building robots... that we get the best of what we celebrate..." where are we now headed and what will we be celebrating?
Look at the proposed points system for ranking and advancement to see what appears to be the FiM Vision.
The proposed points system for State qualification ranking is ALL about ROBOT FIELD PERFORMANCE. Why not consider total package scoring something like FLL, or FTC does while we reinvent here and demphasize the machines?
Here are a couple eye brow raisers:
#1 Alliance Captain = 16 points
#1 DRAFT PICK = 16 points (Why is this = to #1 Seed? Other than the assumption that a strong team, yet still not the #1 seeded team, will get picked first from wherever they are in the standings and benefit equally even though they had lesser points, by talent or luck?).
It even assigns points based off of the Elimination Rounds, with adjustments made to individual teams points by WHEN they were picked. Should draft pick even count for points as it is a decision solely made by teams and subject to,
potential manipulation for points?
While
Judged FIRST awards.... earn a whopping 5 points for a technical award, and 2 points (equal to a match win) for other Judged Awards!! Something looks amiss on the values. Do we as a FIRST Community concur with this, esp. if this indeed our future?
We can argue that it's essentially the same today, but look at the outward message this point system presents.
Success in FiM is about building the best robots. Granted, that has always been implied, but now there's no redeeming gracious option in the system.
What about the team that bombs their first event, then Win's the 2nd- but doesn't have the points to go to State? Or the team who never Wins, but gets the points? (I haven't done any of the math, but I'm sure analysis would be worthwhile and interesting) Maybe FiM has something they can share? Or if that team that bombed the first, Wins the 2nd, then actually qualifies for State, but realizes they have no shot at the CMP, and/or has no $$$ to go. When do the tallies come out? So that the next in line might go. Who keeps track and issues the lists?
I'm assuming that a serpentine draft will help balance some of this point distribution though, right? Or, are they planning top-down each round? It really does begin to matter more for State Quals now, and it's not just an impact on a winning alliance.
What is the plan for current Chairman's Award teams? Will they still get the automatic qualification to the Championship? How do they impact the 18 teams from the State if they Win an event and get a ton of points? Or are the final point values going to be calculated after taking the CA teams out? What about the teams they won, or lost with?
How about the State Championship events? Should they (Past Chairman's, or Winner's) be able to go to State and diminish the chances of others qualifying for the Championship if they are already going to Atlanta?
Perhaps FiM should "pilot" them not getting the automatic qualification as well? Or if they do have an automatic qualification, does FiM plan to bar them from competing in the state championship and "suggest" their teams provide the "volunteers" for the State event?
Is there going to be financial assistance made for teams that need to cough up $4000 in a few days if they qualify in week #5 for State? Remember, everyone's budget is expected to drop dramatically.
What if the same team earns a spot at the CMP? That's $9000 in a short time, and two trips back to sponsors and almost 2X of what the initial cost was. I don't know about all this... esp. in tighter times and for smaller teams.
Why only 2 Rookie All-Stars to the CMP, when the State used to send 3? This opportunity can significantly boost a new team, the kinds of teams we are supposed to be helping with all this
Only one Eng. Insp?
We're still planning to send 3 Chairman's...
3 Winners...
9 Top points/field performers...
I highly advise ALL teams to look this pilot over very carefully and critically. Don't let anyone else do your thinking for you.
No one questions the
need to improve. Are we sure we have the right vehicle to get there and are keeping to the objectives of developing people along with robots? If we can work through some of the questions and questionable aspects now together, why wait a full season to test & see?
Perhaps FiM will host some official discussion soon. I think it would be well worth the time.