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Unread 06-04-2010, 04:09
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Re: Sacrificing a State Championship for the Cause???

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Lucas View Post
I know its not a solid point just my opinion/prediction. We are all just sharing opinions thats why I qualify it as my belief (others are free to disagree). Often if you dont throw something like IMHO or I believe in then you get someone posting something like "you dont know that" which is true but is moot because no one really knows. Of course your response is much better reasoned and worded, but you also qualify all your statements with "personally", "I think" etc... which is not a solid point as you correctly pointed out. My opinions are based on observations from 2 regionals attended and watching multiple webcasted regionals at once on the other weeks including most of MSC and experience in FIRST that is humble compared to many on this forum.
It's true, there are often much worse cases. It was just a little bothersome that you made further statements based on perviously stated opinion (stated as opinion of course), because while those new opinions are rooted from the previous opinion and are similiarly respectable (by no means am I trying to reject your opinions), they only become more far fetched as they travel along that branch. Like I said, it gets much worse than what you did, and I apologize for the over-criticism. Now, let's get to the real discussion here

Quote:
. . . We disagree about whether the MSC elim field is better than the CMP elim field which happens over a week from now in an ever evolving game. . . However, I believe that all divisions will seed well so that most divisions will field a better elim group than MSC. It will still be basically a matter of opinion if the elim field is better because there is very few metric you can use to compare. Combined score is not a very good metric because different effective strategies can produce varying scores, however tracking MI robot performance might be good.

Like you said, this base here that we disagree upon is mostly based on opinion more than fact. After a few years of having an MSC, we may be able to judge this better. As the rest of the country and world gets better, Michigan may begin to fade, expecially as many teams are losing sponsors and may begin to fold. On the other hand, Michigan may continue this and last year's impressive performance, with less financial issues with the lower-cost districts, and newer teams being consistent powerhouses. In this, perhaps the best answer is "Time will tell."


Quote:
Everything is opinion because we cant produce any good stats to compare regionals. We have combined scores and OPR but those are regional specific and hard to normalise. The graph of regionals is probably not interconnected enough (particularly with MI teams playing at very few outside events) to for a good Elo style rating system .
Like you said, strategy makes a huge difference in scores. In the earlier districts in Michigan, teams were playing a lot of defense, and though scores were somewhat higher than other regionals, they were not significantly so. However, it seemed that as the season moved on, defense became less prevalent, though it stayed at about the same level in regionals elsewhere. At the MSC, there were very, very few robots that truly only played defense, even in a single match. Because every robot had to earn their place, every robot had mroe than one ability, from good ball control and kicking, to great defense, to being able to easily suspend other robots. because of that, scores quite skyrocketted.

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As for the MSC finals they were epic and I dont know if Einstein will produce a series with that entertainment value of rubber match in final 4. However, MSC finals a poor example when discussing depth of an elim field, because that is more about the 4 top MSC robots (1918, 469, 67, & 217) with very good 3rd partners (2834 & 2612, I'm not going to set Jack up) that no other alliances could beat for in a single match (close but no upsets).
I'm by no means trying to say that this is an example of a regular match or even an average finals match-up. They were quite spectacular, and I just hope they'll continue to live up to this new bar.

Quote:
As for 18 - 18 with 1 robot per alliance playing defence that really depends on how you interpret defence. I didnt see any robots that were "only playing defence" (trust me I've seen that enough to know it when I see it) just 6 robots playing good strategic roles in that match. I saw 217 blocking 469's shots then shooting them at their blue goals to be scored. All 6 robots contributed significantly to their alliance score while also contributing in at different levels to the defensive effort. Bravo to all the teams, that is a great way to play the game.
I interpreted 217's play as mainly blocking shots, and secondarily clearing balls to avoid them from being scored by 2834, but again, that could just as well be seen as half defense and half offense. There was no absolute role played by any robot, and in that way it was a great match to watch to see some master strategy and gameplay taking place.
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