Go to Post Do whatever you must to survive within the rules, but please stay within the rules. - Kevin Sevcik [more]
Home
Go Back   Chief Delphi > Competition > Rules/Strategy
CD-Media   CD-Spy  
portal register members calendar search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read FAQ rules

 
Closed Thread
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #1   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 06-01-2002, 12:42
Mike Soukup's Avatar
Mike Soukup Mike Soukup is offline
Software guy
FRC #0111 (Wildstang)
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: May 2001
Rookie Year: 1996
Location: Schaumburg, IL
Posts: 797
Mike Soukup has a reputation beyond reputeMike Soukup has a reputation beyond reputeMike Soukup has a reputation beyond reputeMike Soukup has a reputation beyond reputeMike Soukup has a reputation beyond reputeMike Soukup has a reputation beyond reputeMike Soukup has a reputation beyond reputeMike Soukup has a reputation beyond reputeMike Soukup has a reputation beyond reputeMike Soukup has a reputation beyond reputeMike Soukup has a reputation beyond repute
1 coach rule

What does everyone think of the 1 coach rule? I've heard rumors that FIRST instated it because of a select few adult coaches who were overbearing & intimidated the students. But does this new rule solve the problem? Now instead of having 2 coaches, 1 who is out of control and 1 who no one objects to, we'll be left with the out of control coach. I don't think the rule solves anything, and has the potential to hurt teams' in-match strategies. It's always good to have a second coach back there concentrating strictly on the score and what the next move should be.

Anyone else have opinions?

I have opinions on the subject, but as always, I'll save my final opinion for a few months down the line after I've seen some competitions.

Mike
  #2   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 06-01-2002, 12:47
David Kelly's Avatar
David Kelly David Kelly is offline
A Legacy of Impact
FRC #0234 (Cyber Blue)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: May 2001
Rookie Year: 1999
Location: Indianapolis, IN USA
Posts: 2,579
David Kelly has a reputation beyond reputeDavid Kelly has a reputation beyond reputeDavid Kelly has a reputation beyond reputeDavid Kelly has a reputation beyond reputeDavid Kelly has a reputation beyond reputeDavid Kelly has a reputation beyond reputeDavid Kelly has a reputation beyond reputeDavid Kelly has a reputation beyond reputeDavid Kelly has a reputation beyond reputeDavid Kelly has a reputation beyond reputeDavid Kelly has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to David Kelly Send a message via Yahoo to David Kelly
the only way it will affect us is that we will have 1 less student that gets to up there. our team always operated with 1 adult and 4 students. we usually used the spot for the other coach for non-drivers and non-human players to experience the competition. so, the coach part doesn't affect us but now we won't have as many people get to experience the competition.
__________________
2010 Indiana Robotics Invitational Planning Committee


2010 Boilermaker Regional

Chairman's Award, Regional Finalist
2010 Kansas City Regional
Entrepreneurship Award

2010 Championships
Autodesk Inventor Award Winner
  #3   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 06-01-2002, 13:08
Mike Rush's Avatar
Mike Rush Mike Rush is offline
Somewhat Insightful
FRC #4154 (Perpetual Recursion)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Rookie Year: 1996
Location: Eldon, MO
Posts: 155
Mike Rush is just really niceMike Rush is just really niceMike Rush is just really niceMike Rush is just really niceMike Rush is just really nice
Good to leave out another adult...

The students are to be setting the stradegy for the match and the fewer 'adult' interference the better. This will also keep the field less crowded(sp?).
  #4   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 06-01-2002, 13:17
Joe Johnson's Avatar Unsung FIRST Hero
Joe Johnson Joe Johnson is offline
Engineer at Medrobotics
AKA: Dr. Joe
FRC #0088 (TJ2)
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: May 2001
Rookie Year: 1996
Location: Raynham, MA
Posts: 2,648
Joe Johnson has a reputation beyond reputeJoe Johnson has a reputation beyond reputeJoe Johnson has a reputation beyond reputeJoe Johnson has a reputation beyond reputeJoe Johnson has a reputation beyond reputeJoe Johnson has a reputation beyond reputeJoe Johnson has a reputation beyond reputeJoe Johnson has a reputation beyond reputeJoe Johnson has a reputation beyond reputeJoe Johnson has a reputation beyond reputeJoe Johnson has a reputation beyond repute
People of good will can disagree...

This is one of those cases where I disagree with the ruling, but others have differring opinions that are valid.

To my mind, last year's game set up a nightmare negotiation process that was designed to bring out the worst in people (students and adults alike). It was like tossing matches into piles of leaves and wondering why all these fires are breaking out.

The fix was not to reduce the the number of adults (who can sometimes behave badly but are not more likely to than students) but to fix this process that brought out the worst in basically good people (which this year's game has in fact done).

But... ...again, people of good will can disagree.

Joe J.
  #5   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 06-01-2002, 13:52
Jordan A.'s Avatar
Jordan A. Jordan A. is offline
Registered User
#0781 (Kinetic Knights)
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Kincardine, Ontario
Posts: 145
Jordan A. is an unknown quantity at this point
Send a message via ICQ to Jordan A.
Our team plans on elimnating the adult completely

One team member ("student mentor") in charge of keeping track of scoring.

Two drivers

One human player.
  #6   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 06-01-2002, 14:23
soap108's Avatar
soap108 soap108 is offline
Registered User
FRC #0108 (SigmaC@T)
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Rookie Year: 1995
Location: Plantation, FL
Posts: 511
soap108 is a splendid one to beholdsoap108 is a splendid one to beholdsoap108 is a splendid one to beholdsoap108 is a splendid one to beholdsoap108 is a splendid one to beholdsoap108 is a splendid one to beholdsoap108 is a splendid one to behold
The loss of 2 coaches per alliance means more stress on the rest of the group to real-time track what the score is and what is needed to win. The win-by-1 aspect of the game is critical like it was in 2000 qualifying rounds. Of course in eliminations this is a moot point, unless a rule change happens...

In the qualifying rounds, one or both of the human players in the alliance will need to step up and fill this void. HP's now need to become more than just shooters and loaders.

KA - 108
  #7   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 06-01-2002, 17:28
l1jmx's Avatar
l1jmx l1jmx is offline
Registered User
#0840 (ART)
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: California
Posts: 25
l1jmx is an unknown quantity at this point
Send a message via AIM to l1jmx
Being a rookie team I didn't see anything wrong with the 1 mentor rule. We hadn't really been planning on having any adults on the floor at all, although now that we know we can, it might be enjoyable to have one of our fun mentors down there that we all get along with. Are we allowed to go with 4 students though, if we desire, so long as they are designated as not allowed to touch the balls beforehand? I thought the competition was supposed to be as much student-run as possible - this is a learning experience for the students, shouldn't it be us kids that do the strategizing and negotiating (heck, I trust the instincts of most younger people at coming up with strategies and counting quickly more so than any of the adults I know).
  #8   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 06-01-2002, 20:11
Mike Soukup's Avatar
Mike Soukup Mike Soukup is offline
Software guy
FRC #0111 (Wildstang)
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: May 2001
Rookie Year: 1996
Location: Schaumburg, IL
Posts: 797
Mike Soukup has a reputation beyond reputeMike Soukup has a reputation beyond reputeMike Soukup has a reputation beyond reputeMike Soukup has a reputation beyond reputeMike Soukup has a reputation beyond reputeMike Soukup has a reputation beyond reputeMike Soukup has a reputation beyond reputeMike Soukup has a reputation beyond reputeMike Soukup has a reputation beyond reputeMike Soukup has a reputation beyond reputeMike Soukup has a reputation beyond repute
Please people, don't turn this into a student vs adult coach thread, that was not the point of my post. The rule change by FIRST was not "get rid of an adult coach." It was "there shall only be 1 coach." My point is that by removing the extra coach (student or adult based on the specific team), everyone else in the driver's box must do more work. I think the ability to have a coach dedicated to watching the score is a big bonus, and teams won't have that chance this year.

Mike
  #9   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 06-01-2002, 20:19
Kit Gerhart's Avatar
Kit Gerhart Kit Gerhart is offline
Mentor, coach, whatever--
FRC #0233 ("The Pink Team")
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Rookie Year: 1996
Location: Cape Canaveral, FL USA
Posts: 559
Kit Gerhart has a reputation beyond reputeKit Gerhart has a reputation beyond reputeKit Gerhart has a reputation beyond reputeKit Gerhart has a reputation beyond reputeKit Gerhart has a reputation beyond reputeKit Gerhart has a reputation beyond reputeKit Gerhart has a reputation beyond reputeKit Gerhart has a reputation beyond reputeKit Gerhart has a reputation beyond reputeKit Gerhart has a reputation beyond reputeKit Gerhart has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to Kit Gerhart
Smile

I think it is ok for students to be coaches, but I also feel that adults should be allowed to be drivers and operators if they can win a team's competition for the positions. Why does FIRST have all this age descrimination.
__________________
Team 45, TechnoKats, 1996-2002
Team 1062, The Storm, 2003
Team 233, "The Pink Team," 2004-present

The views I express here are mine, and mine alone, not those of my team, FIRST, or my previous teams.
  #10   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 06-01-2002, 20:53
Unsung FIRST Hero
Nate Smith Nate Smith is offline
FRC Key Volunteer Trainer
AKA: CrazyNate
no team
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Rookie Year: 1998
Location: Old Town, Maine
Posts: 1,029
Nate Smith is a splendid one to beholdNate Smith is a splendid one to beholdNate Smith is a splendid one to beholdNate Smith is a splendid one to beholdNate Smith is a splendid one to beholdNate Smith is a splendid one to beholdNate Smith is a splendid one to beholdNate Smith is a splendid one to behold
Send a message via AIM to Nate Smith Send a message via Yahoo to Nate Smith
Quote:
Originally posted by Kit Gerhart
I think it is ok for students to be coaches, but I also feel that adults should be allowed to be drivers and operators if they can win a team's competition for the positions. Why does FIRST have all this age descrimination.
Don't forget that FIRST is, and always has been, for the students. When you look at the FIRST Robotics Competition as a whole, there is very little definition of what must be done by students, and what may be done by the adult mentors. If FIRST was to allow the adult mentors to be the actual robot drivers and/or human player(currently the only parts of the entire competition which say that they MUST be done by the students, unless you look at things such as the animation), it would be possible to have a team with NO students taking part, which would eliminate the whole purpose of the competition. I personally do not look at this as "discrimination," but rather a way for FIRST to ensure that teams are working toward the goals of the program as a whole.
__________________
Nate Smith
nsmith@smythsoft.com
12 seasons, 4 teams, and more time logged behind the scorekeeper's table than I care to remember...
returning for 2011? only time will tell...
  #11   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 06-01-2002, 20:56
Kit Gerhart's Avatar
Kit Gerhart Kit Gerhart is offline
Mentor, coach, whatever--
FRC #0233 ("The Pink Team")
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Rookie Year: 1996
Location: Cape Canaveral, FL USA
Posts: 559
Kit Gerhart has a reputation beyond reputeKit Gerhart has a reputation beyond reputeKit Gerhart has a reputation beyond reputeKit Gerhart has a reputation beyond reputeKit Gerhart has a reputation beyond reputeKit Gerhart has a reputation beyond reputeKit Gerhart has a reputation beyond reputeKit Gerhart has a reputation beyond reputeKit Gerhart has a reputation beyond reputeKit Gerhart has a reputation beyond reputeKit Gerhart has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to Kit Gerhart
My post was not serious

My post saying that adults should be allowed to be drivers was not serious. Sorry about the confusion.

Actually, I would like to opportunity to be driver, but I certainly agree with the FIRST rules that disallow it.
__________________
Team 45, TechnoKats, 1996-2002
Team 1062, The Storm, 2003
Team 233, "The Pink Team," 2004-present

The views I express here are mine, and mine alone, not those of my team, FIRST, or my previous teams.

Last edited by Kit Gerhart : 06-01-2002 at 23:21.
  #12   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 07-01-2002, 18:53
Joe Menassa Joe Menassa is offline
Professional Photographer
FRC #0078 (Air Strike)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Rookie Year: 2001
Location: Newport, RI
Posts: 100
Joe Menassa has much to be proud ofJoe Menassa has much to be proud ofJoe Menassa has much to be proud ofJoe Menassa has much to be proud ofJoe Menassa has much to be proud ofJoe Menassa has much to be proud ofJoe Menassa has much to be proud ofJoe Menassa has much to be proud ofJoe Menassa has much to be proud of
Send a message via AIM to Joe Menassa
good idea

this is really good because it was getting too cramped with all those people back there
__________________
Joe Menassa
FRC 78
  #13   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 07-01-2002, 20:08
Rick's Avatar
Rick Rick is offline
Ready to STRIKE!
AKA: Rick Blight
FRC #0078 (AIR STRIKE)
Team Role: Coach
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Rookie Year: 2001
Location: Tiverton, RI, USA
Posts: 635
Rick has a reputation beyond reputeRick has a reputation beyond reputeRick has a reputation beyond reputeRick has a reputation beyond reputeRick has a reputation beyond reputeRick has a reputation beyond reputeRick has a reputation beyond reputeRick has a reputation beyond reputeRick has a reputation beyond reputeRick has a reputation beyond reputeRick has a reputation beyond repute
go joe
__________________
Like Aquidneck Island Robotics on Facebook!
  #14   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 07-01-2002, 21:32
Fearless Leader's Avatar
Fearless Leader Fearless Leader is offline
Registered User
#0280 (TNT)
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Taylor, Michihgan
Posts: 5
Fearless Leader is an unknown quantity at this point
I don't like the rule change...be it adult or student is not my issue I think that this game/year was not the year to make this change...it is going to require that 2 people be involved in the on field scoring/strategy so that the driver/operators can concentrate on the task at hand. This years game is very intensive with regard to scoring and keeping track of opponent alliances...I think it would be better served with 2 people (student or adult) watching these aspects
__________________
We've Already Won... Just Getting It Done!!

Joe Horth
  #15   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 07-01-2002, 22:27
meaubry meaubry is offline
volunteer helper
FRC #6099 (Knights)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Rookie Year: 1997
Location: Shelby Twp, Mi
Posts: 784
meaubry has a reputation beyond reputemeaubry has a reputation beyond reputemeaubry has a reputation beyond reputemeaubry has a reputation beyond reputemeaubry has a reputation beyond reputemeaubry has a reputation beyond reputemeaubry has a reputation beyond reputemeaubry has a reputation beyond reputemeaubry has a reputation beyond reputemeaubry has a reputation beyond reputemeaubry has a reputation beyond repute
Well, I don't really know the motivation of FIRST planners that determined 4 people would be the rule and not 5. But, in my opinion it doesn't really matter - if we had been playing the previous 11 years with 4 we would have figured out how to divy up the tasks at hand, wouldn't we? So instead of trying to decide better or worse, lets face it we only get to have 4 people (notice there is no reference to student or adult) - anyways, why not discuss "what the 4 will do" - The decision has been made, NOW how do you respond? This also is a challenge that we can surprise Dean and Woody with by showing them - it is possible to play the game, have fun, and still get the tasks completed. Nobody said that figuring out gear ratios and speed curves was the ONLY thing that would make your brain hurt to figure out!
Closed Thread


Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
My Favorite rule. :) Useless member Rules/Strategy 15 01-03-2003 00:44
Proposed New Rule M11 Joe Johnson Rules/Strategy 14 04-02-2003 14:41
Rule C1 Justin Stiltner Rules/Strategy 9 05-01-2003 22:59
Do away with the 2-minute rule! archiver 2000 3 23-06-2002 23:17
One coach rule nick reynolds Rules/Strategy 36 10-01-2002 14:58


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:57.

The Chief Delphi Forums are sponsored by Innovation First International, Inc.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © Chief Delphi