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  #31   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 09-01-2002, 22:40
Nicoleaqueen Nicoleaqueen is offline
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I agree with everyone

I don't have the talent to drive, so I only have experience "on the field" as human player and student coach. Even if I wasn't really doing anything, it was exciting to be back there. Seeing how our adult coaches act when they are back there, they are just as excited, and they were definately doing something.

I don't think anything is wrong with the adults wanting a reward or thrill. I don't mean to cheapen it by using that terminology either, it really is the way to feel the greatest achievement in the shortest amount of time. I think that it is definately something that is deserved. I look at the adults who have been with us for many years through many sponsors and consider them friends and mentors. Sometimes I cannot believe the amount of work they put in. They deserve to coach, especially since the ones that work the hardest are the best at it.

I do see the FIRST perspective of making it more about the kids. Sometimes the adults get more stressed than the students, and do not always take the 'gracious professionalism' attitude. Of course, this is very few times, but negative things are always magnified.

I don't think eliminating one person is a good solution. It is far more exciting for team members to be able to participate. For those of us who are more on the executive side of things and don't build the robot, being able to be human player is really cool. Making that opportunity available to less students isn't good. On our team, all members are considered equal. Engineers and students work side by side. I definately agree with the majority of the people in here when they feel that FIRST is about the mentorship. It isn't just about the students. If it were, the adults would be paid. Aren't coaches in sports? If the adults can't drive or be human player, there should be 2 coaching possitions available.

Nicole
  #32   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 09-01-2002, 23:47
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Mike Soukup Mike Soukup is offline
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Re: What coach??

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Originally posted by team222badbrad
What coach are you guys talking about?? Whats a coach?? I don's see any coaches around here! What is there to compain about it should be 5 students and no coaches!! This year we are going to have 2 student drivers, 1 student human player, and 1 student spotter! The only case when we ever have adults is in emergencies!......
You're missing the point. A coach is not an adult mentor. A coach is a person in the box who doesn't drive or toss balls onto the field. The coach can be either a student or adult. So your statement that there should be 5 students means you're in favor of 2 coaches.

I dispise the fact that this debate has turned into a student vs adult coach battle. The real debate should be about 1 vs 2 coaches.

Mike
  #33   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 10-01-2002, 09:04
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Even though it may be nice to have as many people as possible participate, you dont want the driver box overcrowded. Hugs and pats on the back can always be shared off the feild right after the match. That second coach is being eliminated because they are not really essential to the success of the team. Whoever said that their team switched off adults coaches every round so they all get a chance, there are about 8 rounds at a typically regional so everyone can still have a chance, and if you have more than 8 adults who are very active on your team, then the students are probably not getting to do very much. I don't mean to offend you, and maybe you do have a team where theres lots of adults and the students do just as much work, im just saying in most cases its not like that.
I think another reason that FIRST may have made this rule is that in the past there have been some overly aggressive and emotional coaches. I have observed this quite a bit on other teams. Theres definitly just as many good coaches out there, but say you are the poor driver who gets stuck with two self nominated negative coaches. One is easy to deal with, but two?
I know these arent very good points Im just trying to provide some insight on why FIRST might have done this.
Anyway for those adults who got the shaft this year, dont be too dissapointed, theres a lot of scouting to do and that is just as important, and doesnt someone need to schmooze with the other teams and advertise your robot? Teach the kids how to do it right.

Becky
  #34   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 10-01-2002, 11:33
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way to alleviate the pressure...

Now I know many teams try to keep the same coach for all matches to establish a sense of continuity for the drivers. However having two different coaches alternating who work closely together would allow for the extra adult role (people like raul would get their chance to coach) while it would also alleviate some of the pressure on the coach. If there is some dispute, if something goes wrong in a match, simply having a second coach around who stands unified with the first coach could help prevent blame being placed wrongly. The only way for this system to work well is for the coaches to work soooo closely together with each other, and with the drive team that there is no confusion between matches when the coaches switch. Both coaches need to be well versed in the strategy of the game, and both need to be able to perform the same (full) coaching roles effectively.

I dunno... It's kind of confusing, but I think it will work. Our team is going to try something like that this year.

JVN
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  #35   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 10-01-2002, 14:25
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I've read most of the posts in this thread and basically agree with what is being said. Whether it is an adult or student does not matter there were times that the #5 slot could be filled by a non essential person. We did this last year in Houston with our Sponsoring Vice President as our #5 person --- we recieved an extra 5K funding and FIRST is now benefiting as he is willing to help get our company more involved in houston. Hey we won't have the opportunity to "turn someone else on to FIRST" 4 is a critical number, 5 gave you one that you could play with.
As always this years gave is quite diabolical.
KY
  #36   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 10-01-2002, 14:27
Nathan Kroll Nathan Kroll is offline
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Coaches

I was a driver on a FIRST team for four years. I had my share of both what you would call good and bad coaches and good and bad matches. We tried several forms of coaching on our team including student coaches. There were several times when I felt that the coaches I had on the field with me were a nuisance and I would be better off without them. However, that feeling was usually generated out of the heat of the competition and my own stubborn attitude. Looking back I have realized just how important it is for adults to be out on the field as it is for students. This competition isn't about students trying to prove that they are just as good of strategists as adults or that they are smart enough to do it on their own. A major point of FiIRST is teamwork, not only between peers, but also between students and adults. Not many students I hung out with in high school were able to say that they have been treated as an equal by educated professionals twice their age (most of my friends at ccollege cant say that either). One of the most gratifying things I took out of the driving experience was feeling that the engineers and advisors I worked with (not only on my team but on most others as well) treated me as an equal, just as long as I didn't portray myself as a cocky do everything myself student.
I kinda got off subject, but the basic point is that FIRST is all about teamwork, and one of the most intense environments to show teamwork under is on the field. I feel FIRST is taking away from that experience a little by sending out a maximum of 1 adult. Just my opinion though....

Last edited by Nathan Kroll : 10-01-2002 at 14:34.
  #37   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 10-01-2002, 14:58
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In hopes of NOT further charging what appears to be an emotional topic.

Reading thru the posts and my own feelings compel me to post.

1) At the Silicon Valley Forum this point was rasied and debated. We 'sorta' agreed (with dissention) that one adult may be a compromise.

2) As for adults putting in long hours and not being allowed on the field. Well seems to me there are more students in this situation than adults. 30-40 member teams (student members) understand not everyone gets to be on the field

3) Its part of this contest to change stuff every year. Limits on gears and supply and what electronics we can use. I hope FIRST sticks to its guns on this because its different. Change is good.

4) FIRST has always (in the four years I have been in this) told us who is allowed behind the glass. Two adults max in previous competitions. Only students driving...

5) As for students dismissing engineers at the end as no longer important. I doubt that its a general feeling in the FIRST community. Most teams adore thier engineers. Of course there are exceptions but overall I believe the students realise how important the adults are



6) And I do agree that this rule was created by last years 4 vs 0 when student coached teams *sometimes* were ignored by adult coaches.

So I'm not sure if I helped any but at least I feel better.

I bet it will still be fun this year

Eric Stokely
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