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  #16   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 10-03-2003, 08:43
SS2k3 SS2k3 is offline
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The Cleveland regional was not much different from Lev's story above. We had to request that the small TV be moved twice because it was so loud in the pits. They finally hooked up an external speaker and that helped out a lot; although most of the judging was finished by this time. No announcement was ever made about judging. Some of the animations had credits and copyrighted music. The award ceremony didn't even show the winning animation nor did they announce the 2 runner ups. The scores were never posted. Not a soul in the place new exactly what was going on with the animation or the website awards. I think FIRST should take the suggestions of the prior post into consideration.
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Unread 10-03-2003, 12:58
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Unhappy Secondhand Rose...

The conditions for viewing the animations at the Granite State Regional competition were certainly less than optimal. It is truly unfortunate that the hard work done by all the participating teams submissions was not enjoyed by many more than just the judging contingent.

The students on animation teams work as hard on their contribution as do the mechanical/electrical/controls people do, and therefore should be accorded the same considerations for their efforts.

I would sincerely hope that future competitions take the animation submissions more seriously and afford them with a venue more suited to viewing, judging and general appreciation than has been shown in the past.

Please, FIRST and Autodesk officials, take note of these concerns and work at rectifying them for the future.
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Finalist: AutoDesk Animation Award
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Quarter-Finalist: Granite State Regional Competition
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Semi-Finalist: Mayhem on the Merrimack
Winner: BattleCry @ WPI

Last edited by CBP at BAE : 10-03-2003 at 13:30.
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Unread 10-03-2003, 18:36
RachelOfMars RachelOfMars is offline
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I agree that the regional competitions were a mess. But here's one thing we should consider -- and feel free to shoot me if I'm just projecting my own team's problems on everyone else, but I get the feeling it's endemic --:

FIRST is about inspiring students to become engineers. Companies want employees, Dean wants clean water to become universally available, and NASA wants a budget.

It's a leap of logic to instead inspire students to make animations which in turn inspire other students to become engineers. The general reaction to animations is that it's awesome eye-candy -- pretty, but pointless. Partly it's the thirty-second time limit. Partly it's the overally quality of the animations.

Too many animations are just people fooling around with 3DS Max; watch at the regionals, or watch some of previous years' examples. Once you get past the Cybersonics and Metal Jackets, there's a lot of frass in there, the kind that makes a poorly-made robot look sleek. I'm not saying that the teams with those animations are bad; they (we) probably just didn't have enough support.

How many animation teams consist of primarily just one person? Too many.

Inspiring engineering wins awards like Chairman's and so on, but inspiring animators doesn't. Or at least, nobody's tried it. If we put the kind of effort into recruiting new members -- quality members, the honest types willing to spend time and effort towards making an awesome animation -- maybe FIRST will start to notice us.

But maybe it's impossible to do that with a 30 second time limit and a theme like "What does FIRST mean to you?"
I dunno.
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Last edited by RachelOfMars : 10-03-2003 at 18:39.
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Unread 10-03-2003, 18:54
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I just finished the Sacramento regional, and have to say that it was on par with what you are saying. At first I thought that the TV sitting in the pit area was due to the fact that Sacramento was a rookie regional. However, to continue the tale of woe, autodesk Forgot, FORGOT! I tell you to put our animation on the tape. When I talked to the autodesk representative their response was roughly along ithe lines of "Oops." I was very upset. Although our team had very little chance of winning (as I had never used the software before, and spent five weeks learning how), I was really upset by all of my work being wasted. Moreover, what is with teams not in the regional being able to win??? Our regionals competition was won by Gunn robotics (team 192), who had a truely remarkable movie, by the way, but they didn't come to our regional. At this point i am seriously considering whether or not to enter a movie next year. At least I can hope that the Silicon Valley regional will be better.
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Unread 10-03-2003, 20:00
AdamSmith461 AdamSmith461 is offline
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The Buckeye Regional was also very unorganized and unprofessional. I have no idea how well our team did, nor do I have any idea how conferences work (why were we judging animations for teams that didn't attend our regional? What would happen if they won? If the top three teams from each regionals goes onto nationals, how does that work? Does that mean somebody can go to nationals a few times because each team is judged at several regional competition?). Nobody at the competition had any clue about anything related to animation or website for that matter (and not to knock 1038's website, but isn't it odd that Chief didn't win it?). Our animation relied heavily on our sound and music (which we recorded ourselves; many teams took copyrighted music), yet it was being shown in the loud pit area on a small tv. I highly doubt that ballots were screened so that people did not vote for themselves.

I lead a team of very dedicated and motivated high schoolers to make a great, high quality animation that we were very proud of. After spending so much time on it, it sure doesn't seem fair that there was absolutely no thought put into the organization of this animation competition. I'm very disappointed in FIRST and I was hoping that not all of the regionals would be thrown like this. I'm sorry that your scenario was just as bad if not worse than mine. FIRST needs to start to understand just how much time and effort is spent on some of these animations.

-Adam Smith
Westside Boiler Invasion, Team 461 Information Technologies Coordinator
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Unread 10-03-2003, 20:08
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Quote:
Originally posted by AdamSmith461
Nobody at the competition had any clue about anything related to animation or website for that matter (and not to knock 1038's website, but isn't it odd that Chief didn't win it?).
I believe ChiefDelphi was ineligible because their site is basically vBulletin, a software package. I'm not positive though, just heard it somewhere. I was actually in shock when it was announced that we had won, I was one of the students that was working on the website and we weren't even planning on submitting it. We didn't put in as much effort as we'd have liked to and didn't feel it was up to standards with other great websites in the FIRST community. I heard during the competition that one team had voted for us, I figured they were the only team to actually vote or something. I was very surprised that we won, I don't think we really deserved it.
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Unread 10-03-2003, 20:12
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chiefdelphi.com was not entered into the website competition. I've posted it a few times ... somewhere.
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Unread 10-03-2003, 21:06
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This is my third year involved with the competition. I teach 3DS Max for a local college.

Each year I complain about the utter indifference FIRST and most particularly Autodesk displays toward the animation portion of the contest. We are truly the "ugly red-headed step-children" of the competition.

A recent post here stated that while the conditions are not as good as they should be, they are light years from where they used to be. I beg to differ, seems to me they've nose dived since I started.

This year FIRST/Autodesk posted at best misleading, at worst completely wrong, suggestion on how to test your animation. I immediately emailed Autodesk and begged them to please contact Discreet.

Over the years I have attempted to contact Autodesk about 4 or 5 times about misleading directions, compressions, and other general goofs. Never before have I received a reply. This year I didn't hear from Autodesk, I received a call from Discreet.

I wont tell you here who I spoke to and the general tone of the conversation, but I will tell you one of the things Discreet and I discussed was compression. I've long held that almost any kind of compression (particularly Cinepak) will look like dog poop on any size screen, particularly on a 40ft screen like the one at Nationals.

Lev posted here that there was a lot of pixelization as well as flashes in the animations. My first inclination was, "Well, there's Cinepak for ya'" but then it dawned on me that Lev watched it on VHS.

In order to insure proper display of your animation on a normal TV screen, you should render to fields. TV video is "interlaced" fields (half a frame) or layers. If you do not render to fields, occasionally you get flickers, your materials look as tho' they are sparkling, etc.

Discreet gave me Autodesks reasoning for going with compression as being the best way more computers could view the animation - BUT THEY WENT TO VIDEO! So again, Autodesk dropped the ball. Someone should have known better.

Improper ballots, poor viewing conditions, omitted animations and redundant animations, poor quality - all of this, in my opinion, is simply inexcusable.

A fellow mentor said this evening that he couldn't believe that Dean Kamen is aware of these conditions and there's no way Kamen would allow this to continue if he was. Kamen strikes him as the kind of guy that wouldn't do something if he couldn't do it right. I agree. I dont think Kamen is aware of the generally disgusting treatment of our animations and the indifference flaunted by Autodesk.

Make yourselves heard outside of chiefdelphi forums.

I told Discreet I want the animation competition to be a stand-OUT, not a stand-ALONE. I personally spent many, many hours away from home (3 hrs RT) helping with the animation. I know many of you spent a huge amount of time yourselves; you deserve MUCH better than this.

Dont you agree?
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Unread 10-03-2003, 22:54
Chris Nowak Chris Nowak is offline
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I dunno, this majorly sucks, but you guys have to look at what you did gain probably more of than any other team(at least thats the way it is with our team)-skill. I mean, I cant really put on a resume that I can program PBASIC, its useless(correct me if I'm wrong, I dunno about this). It seems to me that this is the only competition in which every team has an opportunity to use one of the most up to date tools - 3ds MAX. Getting skill in this program is soooo transferrable to many other areas of work. I would venture to say that the self directed animators get a lot more out of this program than engineers or chairmans award. Heck, its because were so self directed...I mean, we have to be, no one has experience with new technology.

Oh yeah, this doesnt mean I think its ok that autodesk is screwing us. Everyone should probably check with their sponsors about getting some better equipment IMO. And dont stop the torrent of E-mails to everyone possible @ autodesk, I'm sure a couple will have to get through.


[edit] I'm not bashing engineering in FIRST here, what it lacks in skills it makes up for in inspiration
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Last edited by Chris Nowak : 10-03-2003 at 23:00.
  #25   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 11-03-2003, 07:32
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Unhappy FIRST may be about fostering engineering, but...

Yes, FIRST is all about engineering, but that's only one part of it. Not every student is interested in engineering, but every student has an opportunity to one day be employed by an engineering-oriented business.

There is much more to building a product (or robot) than the engineering that goes into it, and that's where the remainder of the team shows its value. The animators are producing an advertisement, similar to the company's advertising/marketing department.

Remember that no-one will buy your product if no-one knows it exists, that's what, in essence (and IMHO) the animators do.

On BAE's two teams, there are a slew of talented students on the animation teams who've put a lot of effort into their work, only to have it treated, as someone stated, like the ugly, red-headed, stepchild. No-one should be made to feel slighted, regardless of the "it's all about engineering" mentality. It is for this reason that more students are not interested in the animation as should be. Where are the artistically inclined students? Are they on *your* team as they should be?

Often we hear that "sports for the mind" are given the short coverage in the media, and the "sports for the body" are magnified. What happened to the notion that "smart" people don't have to be recognized for their achievements, that it is only important to have an entire segment on the nightly news that delivers physical sport scores?

Oh, and by the way, the comment that the comedian Michael McDonald (at the Granite State Regional) made about FIRST being "NASCAR for smart people" is somewhat offensive. When he delivered that one-liner, it was pretty funny, but after you stop and think about it, it isn't that funny at all.

Yes, he's right, NASCAR drivers may only turn left all the time, but the engineering that goes into that car is nothing to sneeze about, and I am certain that there are many students in the Detroit area who are looking for employment after graduation at places like GM, Ford and Chrysler. These same people may well be on a factory-sponsored NASCAR team in the future, so what's that say about "NASCAR for smart people"?

I believe that the contributors to this thread are only asking for better treatment and recognition, not special considerations. If enough people from teams across the country complain about the poor treatment of their teammate animators, then maybe FIRST/Autodesk/Discreet will hear the message.

CBP@BAE - Mentor, Merrimack HS "Chop Shop"
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Quarter-Finalist: Granite State Regional Competition
Quarter-Finalist: New England Regional Competition
Finalist: Rally in the Valley
Semi-Finalist: Mayhem on the Merrimack
Winner: BattleCry @ WPI
  #26   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 11-03-2003, 13:47
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Well, Well, Well... It seems that the first weekend of regionals went off like a charm (gag, gag, gag) I will use the heads up given here to make sure our regional goes much better. I plan on contacting the proper people today if posible.

A note on the Artifacting and flashes- If you search previous posts on compression issues- I said very early on that Autodesk was asking for trouble by not specifying compression settings- then when I saw the specifications they gave- I was even more amazed. The entire problem was you take a compressed file and recompress it. This artifacting will happen every time. That was the problem here.

I am also shocked that we are viewing on VHS tape as it defeats the purpose of their compression requests.

As far as the first post on only one team being able to view the animation at one time- I was under the impression that during the judging there was only supposed to be one representative from each team.

The Key here is that you all need to voice you opinion to people that can make the proper changes. Find out who is running your regional and contact them. If its too late for you- then maybe there can be some feedback that will help other regionals and help yours in the future. Dont forget the Autodesk email address. Let them know. I believe that this forum is viewed and heard by FIRST or Autodesk because there are changes this year that are directly related to conversations that happened last year after the nationals.

As far as FIRST being about engineering- Well its supposed to be about Science and Technology- Other wise they'd have to change their name to FIRE- and that doesnt have the same appeal. Animation , Web and Computing ingeneral are all part of Technology. Try running the Segway or the IBot without computers- Fat Chance. Animation is not just about making commercials either- Although thats a big part of what I do- It is and can be used in R&D and illustration of complex medical or scientific procedures that are too expensive or dangerous to produce anyother way (at least in the early stages of a project) There are many aspects to the technology. It can be used for things like the similator that train astronauts or pilots. So don't limit your thinking even if FIRST does.

Good luck to you all and I hope it all works out.

My parting advice is not to run away because its too dificult for you (even if the conditions are crappy and its not your fault) hang in there and try to make things better for those to come. You know your making a difference in your life if you can find a way to leave things better off for those that come after you.
The changes this year are due to the requsets and complaints from the past. So what if Autodesk doesn't have the vision or writing skills (based on incomplete rules) to for see all these problems as many of us did from the second we read the rules this year. Hang in there and lets make it better next year (and this year where ever we can).

The sign of a champion is not your ability to not fall down, but your ability to get back up no matter how many times or how hard you get knocked down.

Last edited by stevek : 11-03-2003 at 17:52.
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Unread 11-03-2003, 15:03
JayTeeGeratee JayTeeGeratee is offline
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What a Joke

Lev,

I agree with everything you said. I too was excited when I heard that they would have regional animation winners. Then when we got to VCU, I couldn't believe it when they said "Each team should select one student volunteer to judge the animations."
First of all students should not be judging these animations.
Second, they only wanted one student from each team. I noticed your team had 3 students judging the animations which even though that's not what they wanted, would have been a litte better than one.
Third. when we submitted the animation we had to check which conference we were in depending on the Regional we were going to attend. The South Conference had 4 regionals in it. Did all those regionals view the same animations? If so, how do we know if we won at the other regionals?
As far as the order, I agree there was no rhyme or reason to the order of the animations on the tape and some were repeated before some were even shown.
I know it's not all about winning but it is about being inspired. How could a student be inspired when they see that FIRST doesn't care about the animation portion? I had 13 students who worked an average of about 80 hours on our animation. That's a lot of time to spend on something that gets no respect.
I hope FIRST will hear our voices and do something in the future.
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Unread 11-03-2003, 15:06
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There is one thing I was wondering all weekend.
If these are for the each conferences does that mean the other regoinals don't do this? The regoinal animation competition is over or could other teams who aren't present win in other regionals?
The process needs more tweaking.
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Unread 11-03-2003, 15:26
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I asked about the conferences from the start. They never had any purpose until on of the last team updates came out- See FIRST updates page- They finally stated a revision to the rules- that revision is that you will be judged at every regional in your conference. That means you have multiple chances to win- Or the cream will truely rise to the top. But the odds are in your favor if you have a good animation that gets over looked at one particular regional. So if there are 4 regionals in your conf. then you will be judged 4 times (once by the teams at each particular regional)

Yes if you can win in a regional you dont attend- And yes somone can win at yours who isn't there. Autodesk will notify you of this result if needed. I'd look for a resuilts page on the FIRST or Autodesk site if you want to know- I dont know that one exists but it will eventually I think.

I agree that most students wont know exactly what to look for. But I hope they look at them all and use their best and honest judgement. Dont watch 1 or 2 and get bored and then just Vote. Give everyone the same chance that you want. Do'nt go by just Looks alone- make sure you review the criterior for each catagory of the judging.
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Unread 11-03-2003, 15:42
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The animation has always been overshadowed, I just didn't think it would ever go to this level. At the least, we spent two thirds of the time the engineering team did. For the entire competition to be based around robotics, spending a mere 5 minutes dedicated to congratulating the possibly misjudged winners seems rather absurd.
The method of judging them was also faulty. The voting should have been done by professionals, mainly because the students can't be trusted (listen to me). It's likely that their vote could be biased due to their personal taste or just waived towards voting unjustly (such as voting for an animation that's unlikely to win, as to cause the better ones to recieve less votes).
It's probably too late to correct the mistakes the process contained this year, but hopefully this input will make next year's a little more FIRST-like.
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