Go to Post do i even have to say anything about hurricane jeanne after my comments about charley, frances and ivan? :mad: but if i could, i would run all of them over with my robot... - Arefin Bari [more]
Home
Go Back   Chief Delphi > FIRST > General Forum
CD-Media   CD-Spy  
portal register members calendar search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read FAQ rules

 
Reply
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #1   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 18-06-2003, 00:29
Wayne C.'s Avatar Unsung FIRST Hero
Wayne C. Wayne C. is offline
hey- I think we did pretty good?
FRC #0025 (Raider Robotix)
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Rookie Year: 1997
Location: North Brunswick, N.J.
Posts: 1,530
Wayne C. has a reputation beyond reputeWayne C. has a reputation beyond reputeWayne C. has a reputation beyond reputeWayne C. has a reputation beyond reputeWayne C. has a reputation beyond reputeWayne C. has a reputation beyond reputeWayne C. has a reputation beyond reputeWayne C. has a reputation beyond reputeWayne C. has a reputation beyond reputeWayne C. has a reputation beyond reputeWayne C. has a reputation beyond repute
Qualification Points for Nationals- Give away?

I was a little concerned that the Qualification System was not even on the agenda at the recent First Forums but we did bring it up at the very end in Pa.

One suggestion made was that teams with an excess of QP's be allowed to donate them to friend teams to allow them to qualify for the Nationals. I guess the mechanism would need to be a formal letter or through the TIMS system. In theory FIRST should have enough slots available in case each team "just qualifies" to attend so in essence teams with 10 or 15 QPs are taking 2-3 team slots.

What is your opinion on this?

WC

(PS- personally I want ALL the teams to attend)
__________________
you want that robot to do what?

Raider Robotix- www.raiderrobotix.org
Reply With Quote
  #2   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 18-06-2003, 00:55
sanddrag sanddrag is offline
On to my 16th year in FRC
FRC #0696 (Circuit Breakers)
Team Role: Teacher
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Rookie Year: 2002
Location: Glendale, CA
Posts: 8,519
sanddrag has a reputation beyond reputesanddrag has a reputation beyond reputesanddrag has a reputation beyond reputesanddrag has a reputation beyond reputesanddrag has a reputation beyond reputesanddrag has a reputation beyond reputesanddrag has a reputation beyond reputesanddrag has a reputation beyond reputesanddrag has a reputation beyond reputesanddrag has a reputation beyond reputesanddrag has a reputation beyond repute
I don't mean to impose on anyone's future opportunities but some teams don't have friend teams with points to give away.

Thus, to be fair to everyone, I would have to say that this is a bad idea.

However, although not practical, I think nationals for everyone is a good idea. It would have to be longer than three days though.
__________________
Teacher/Engineer/Machinist - Team 696 Circuit Breakers, 2011 - Present
Mentor/Engineer/Machinist, Team 968 RAWC, 2007-2010
Technical Mentor, Team 696 Circuit Breakers, 2005-2007
Student Mechanical Leader and Driver, Team 696 Circuit Breakers, 2002-2004
Reply With Quote
  #3   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 18-06-2003, 01:40
nerdcool64 nerdcool64 is offline
Registered User
AKA: Brian R. Goegan I
#0064 (Gila Monsters)
Team Role: Driver
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Mesa, Arizona
Posts: 41
nerdcool64 is an unknown quantity at this point
Send a message via AIM to nerdcool64
Personally, I think a good system would be that you have to win something at the regional level to go to nationals. Anything from Team Spirit to Regional Champions to Chairmans award qualifies you for Nats. No more even or odd stuff.
__________________
"Don't let school get in the way of your education" - Mark Twain

2004 Galileo Division Semifinalist (Thanks Teams 222 and 1405)
2004 Colorado Regional 3rd Seed
2004 Colorado Regional Imagery Award
Reply With Quote
  #4   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 18-06-2003, 02:00
Madison's Avatar
Madison Madison is offline
Dancing through life...
FRC #0488 (Xbot)
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Rookie Year: 1999
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 5,246
Madison has a reputation beyond reputeMadison has a reputation beyond reputeMadison has a reputation beyond reputeMadison has a reputation beyond reputeMadison has a reputation beyond reputeMadison has a reputation beyond reputeMadison has a reputation beyond reputeMadison has a reputation beyond reputeMadison has a reputation beyond reputeMadison has a reputation beyond reputeMadison has a reputation beyond repute
I think getting as many teams to attend the Championship Event, while downplaying the importance of qualification, performance, or winning is a goal of prime important.

I think it's a great idea.
__________________
--Madison--

...down at the Ozdust!

Like a grand and miraculous spaceship, our planet has sailed through the universe of time. And for a brief moment, we have been among its many passengers.
Reply With Quote
  #5   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 18-06-2003, 02:11
Mike Schroeder's Avatar
Mike Schroeder Mike Schroeder is offline
Gone the way of the dinosaur
AKA: "Big Mike"
no team
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Rookie Year: 1999
Location: North Brunswick, NJ
Posts: 1,872
Mike Schroeder has a reputation beyond reputeMike Schroeder has a reputation beyond reputeMike Schroeder has a reputation beyond reputeMike Schroeder has a reputation beyond reputeMike Schroeder has a reputation beyond reputeMike Schroeder has a reputation beyond reputeMike Schroeder has a reputation beyond reputeMike Schroeder has a reputation beyond reputeMike Schroeder has a reputation beyond reputeMike Schroeder has a reputation beyond reputeMike Schroeder has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to Mike Schroeder Send a message via Yahoo to Mike Schroeder
Quote:
Originally posted by nerdcool64
Personally, I think a good system would be that you have to win something at the regional level to go to nationals. Anything from Team Spirit to Regional Champions to Chairmans award qualifies you for Nats. No more even or odd stuff.

what happens when teams goto multiply regionals, win more than one award, they are taking away other teams chances. In the past it was always who ever could register in time, any team #, no matter who won, What people fail to realize is as our #'s increase, this could be the only fair way to give everyone an equal chance, only going to nats every other year is fine, it gives other teams a chance to compete, with only reagional award winners, you are give possibly the same teams over and over again a chance to compete. and in cases like this year, all those last week reagional award winners would have next to no chance to come up with money for nats to travel, is that fair, ask for example 102, and 340 who sat at home, cause they won the J&J Mid-Atlanitc Regional, and only had 4 days to come up with the money and failed to do so, but had it been 2004, instead of 2003 then they would have already have been registered, and been able to compete, So while i ramble on and on, i hope people begin to see why even/odd is fair instead of winning awards
__________________
GOT SEARCH?

"We choose to go to the moon. We choose to go to the moon in this decade and do the other things, not because they are easy, but because they are hard"-JFK
Reply With Quote
  #6   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 18-06-2003, 02:30
WakeZero WakeZero is offline
FIRST-a-holic Strategist
#1011 (CRUSH)
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Tucson, AZ
Posts: 316
WakeZero will become famous soon enough
Send a message via AIM to WakeZero Send a message via Yahoo to WakeZero
The real issue that needs to be addressed (From a pure competition point of view Krass) is the multiple regional participation. Some teams can afford to go to one while others can afford to go to several. This is fine if teams want to go to more than one, BUT, to make it fair to teams who can't... the National Qualifying points should only be counted from your most successful regional.

As for passing of points, I am 100% against it. It's just not fair to team's who aren't surrounded by a lot of successful teams... to name one good reason.
__________________
2004 Arizona Regional -- Semifinalist
2003 NAT Galileo Division -- Highest Seeded Rookie (20th)
2003 NAT Galileo Division -- 100% Autonomous Completion (7 for 7)
2003 Arizona Regional -- Rookie All-Star Award
2003 Arizona Regional -- Quarterfinalist

Alumni on Team 64, The Gila Monsters
College Mentor/Founder of Team 1011, CRUSH
Reply With Quote
  #7   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 18-06-2003, 02:38
Mike Schroeder's Avatar
Mike Schroeder Mike Schroeder is offline
Gone the way of the dinosaur
AKA: "Big Mike"
no team
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Rookie Year: 1999
Location: North Brunswick, NJ
Posts: 1,872
Mike Schroeder has a reputation beyond reputeMike Schroeder has a reputation beyond reputeMike Schroeder has a reputation beyond reputeMike Schroeder has a reputation beyond reputeMike Schroeder has a reputation beyond reputeMike Schroeder has a reputation beyond reputeMike Schroeder has a reputation beyond reputeMike Schroeder has a reputation beyond reputeMike Schroeder has a reputation beyond reputeMike Schroeder has a reputation beyond reputeMike Schroeder has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to Mike Schroeder Send a message via Yahoo to Mike Schroeder
Quote:
Originally posted by WakeZero


As for passing of points, I am 100% against it. It's just not fair to team's who aren't surrounded by a lot of successful teams... to name one good reason.
on a rebutle to your statement, Gracious Proffesionalism, it doesnt nessisarily have to be a team you are close to, gee team XXx needs points maybe team XX can help them out
__________________
GOT SEARCH?

"We choose to go to the moon. We choose to go to the moon in this decade and do the other things, not because they are easy, but because they are hard"-JFK
Reply With Quote
  #8   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 18-06-2003, 10:01
Amanda Morrison's Avatar Unsung FIRST Hero
Amanda Morrison Amanda Morrison is offline
16 awesome years of FRC!
no team
Team Role: Alumni
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Rookie Year: 2002
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 1,864
Amanda Morrison has a reputation beyond reputeAmanda Morrison has a reputation beyond reputeAmanda Morrison has a reputation beyond reputeAmanda Morrison has a reputation beyond reputeAmanda Morrison has a reputation beyond reputeAmanda Morrison has a reputation beyond reputeAmanda Morrison has a reputation beyond reputeAmanda Morrison has a reputation beyond reputeAmanda Morrison has a reputation beyond reputeAmanda Morrison has a reputation beyond reputeAmanda Morrison has a reputation beyond repute
I don't believe this is a good idea at all.

As stated before, not all teams have 'friend teams' that they can borrow points from. Also, how do you know that you aren't going to be starting hard feelings from this? Let's say there are two teams that need a boost in points to go to the Championship. One is fairly successful, but unfortunately isn't able to go because of the point situation; the other is only mildly successful but great friends with the team that has to decide. Who is to say that a team will make the 'right' decision when it comes down to it?

Also, we have had some dynamite rookies come through in the past. Some of these rookies don't have friendships through teams yet, and so their great teamwork/spirit/robot might get them only so far, and then they'd have to beg some other team to give them the rest of the points (and what if it were still to no avail?)

A good idea, but it just sounds like a troublemaker and too much paperwork for FIRST to handle. I think I would almost approve of a different form of gameplay before I'd agree to this. Nobody's to say that a team's decision would be correct, and other teams could hold grudges against them for doing so.

In a gracious, professional world, none of that would happen. But we are just working towards a gracious, professional world - we've still got a long way to go.
__________________
Director of Operations, VEX Robotics, Inc.
Alumna - Teams 71, 1020, 1720, 148
2002 World Champions (Team 71) | 2008 World Champions (Team 148)

Last edited by Amanda Morrison : 18-06-2003 at 10:05.
Reply With Quote
  #9   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 18-06-2003, 10:49
Unsung FIRST Hero
JVN JVN is offline
@JohnVNeun
AKA: John Vielkind-Neun
FRC #0148 (Robowranglers)
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: May 2001
Rookie Year: 2000
Location: Greenville, Tx
Posts: 3,159
JVN has a reputation beyond reputeJVN has a reputation beyond reputeJVN has a reputation beyond reputeJVN has a reputation beyond reputeJVN has a reputation beyond reputeJVN has a reputation beyond reputeJVN has a reputation beyond reputeJVN has a reputation beyond reputeJVN has a reputation beyond reputeJVN has a reputation beyond reputeJVN has a reputation beyond repute
A brief Rant on "winning"

Quote:
Originally posted by M. Krass
I think getting as many teams to attend the Championship Event, while downplaying the importance of qualification, performance, or winning is a goal of prime important.

I think it's a great idea.
I disagree.
Winning is still an important aspect of this competition. When it comes down to it (in theory) the best design, the best strategy, the best alliance wins, right? I believe it is a good thing to show our HS students these elegant designs, to further inspire them.

229 did not win nationals this year (we're all shocked!) One of the first things I did when I got back from Houston, was email my team a link to the Wildstang Inventor Award Submission. I wanted to show my kids "this is what it took to win nationals this year" (plus some amazing driving, and a great alliance...) By doing so, I've inspired some of my kids even more to be a part of the team next year. I've made everyone want to "step it up" again.

Let's see:
Bristol Meyer Squibb 2000
CHAOS 2000
Beatty 2001
WildStang 2001
Beatty 2002
RAGE 2002
WildStang 2003

These are all "winning" or at least finalist robots from nationals. They are all elegant, amazing, unique designs in their own right. When my students see them fight to the end, and see that they are "the best" it sparks a flame in them to try harder for next year. Without the competition, without the "winning" I do not believe this would be possible.

Guys... my kids are not as impressed by the:
-amazing business plan,
-the great way you pulled your team together,
-the way you overcame adversity,
-the way you helped to change our culture

my kids are impressed by the cool robots, and innovative designs.
(you should have heard them when they found out I drove 45's ball drive). Yeah yeah... you can say all day long about how the goal of FIRST is changing culture, and how we should all be equal, etc... but I still believe the best way to change the culture is to effect these HS students one at a time, and on 229, that means showing them that engineering makes you a winner. Engineers are heros.


John

PS - It's not just my HS kids, this whole post applies to ME when I was a HSer. Seeing Beatty 2001 sold me on engineering for life. "How can I do something like that next year?"
__________________
In the interest of full disclosure: I work for VEX Robotics a subsidiary of Innovation First International (IFI) Crown Supplier & Proud Supporter of FIRST
Reply With Quote
  #10   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 18-06-2003, 12:45
ttedrow's Avatar
ttedrow ttedrow is offline
Herding electrons
AKA: Tim Tedrow
FRC #0281 (EnTech)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Rookie Year: 2000
Location: Greenville, SC
Posts: 165
ttedrow will become famous soon enoughttedrow will become famous soon enough
Any and all qualification for the championship event should be based solely on team merit and not patronage.



Tim Tedrow
__________________
Sr. Design Engineer
Caterpillar Inc.
Greenville, SC

KD4EGM

FRC 281 Greenvillains
Infected with the FIRST virus in 2000

Yes, Chute Door!!!
Reply With Quote
  #11   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 18-06-2003, 13:52
Madison's Avatar
Madison Madison is offline
Dancing through life...
FRC #0488 (Xbot)
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Rookie Year: 1999
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 5,246
Madison has a reputation beyond reputeMadison has a reputation beyond reputeMadison has a reputation beyond reputeMadison has a reputation beyond reputeMadison has a reputation beyond reputeMadison has a reputation beyond reputeMadison has a reputation beyond reputeMadison has a reputation beyond reputeMadison has a reputation beyond reputeMadison has a reputation beyond reputeMadison has a reputation beyond repute
Re: A brief Rant on "winning"

Quote:
Originally posted by JVN

Let's see:
Bristol Meyer Squibb 2000
CHAOS 2000
Beatty 2001
WildStang 2001
Beatty 2002
RAGE 2002
WildStang 2003

These are all "winning" or at least finalist robots from nationals. They are all elegant, amazing, unique designs in their own right. When my students see them fight to the end, and see that they are "the best" it sparks a flame in them to try harder for next year. Without the competition, without the "winning" I do not believe this would be possible.
However, there has easily been an equal or greater amount of unique designs, strategies, and mechanisms that were not on winning robots. I know you're not suggesting otherwise, but I think it's important that it gets mentioned.

FIRST can't really show us which of the 800+ teams that compete is truly the best because there's just no way for every match between all teams to take place. It's entirely possible, though, that a combination of a unique strategy, or singular unique design on another robot not competing at an event could've beat any one of those robots.

My point, I guess, is that there are other circumstances that affect a team's potential and ability to perform well at an event. This season, there could very well have been a robot or three that could've beat the winning alliance, but they were all sitting at home in a crate.

Furthermore, by getting as many teams into the Championship Event as we possibly can, we're exposing more kids to those great designs. In FIRST, everyone learns from everyone, and the more people there are hanging around, the more learning is taking place.

I think that a system of goodwill as Wayne's suggested could go a long way toward curtailing the increasing emphasis on winning. Winning is the result of a great design, yes, but it shouldn't be a prominant piece of criteria in determining if you and your work should be allowed to inspire, nor if you should have another opportunity to be inspired.
__________________
--Madison--

...down at the Ozdust!

Like a grand and miraculous spaceship, our planet has sailed through the universe of time. And for a brief moment, we have been among its many passengers.
Reply With Quote
  #12   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 18-06-2003, 14:09
Pin Man Pin Man is offline
How you doin'?!
AKA: Dave Kingsley
FRC #0088 (TJ²)
Team Role: Alumni
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Rookie Year: 2001
Location: Bridgewater, Massachusetts
Posts: 1,003
Pin Man has a spectacular aura aboutPin Man has a spectacular aura aboutPin Man has a spectacular aura about
Send a message via AIM to Pin Man
Re: Qualification Points for Nationals- Give away?

Quote:
Originally posted by Wayne C.
(PS- personally I want ALL the teams to attend)
I agree with you... I think all teams should be able to go... But as for sharing or giving points to other teams I don't know...


As for the other posts about winning a Regional and qualifying, I think winning a regional should be worth less than its worth now...
__________________
AIM SN: ThursdayCambria

Attending Bridgewater State College

Shirt collection- 25, 47, 69, 140, 173, 191, 213, 303, 365, 461, 836, (2)862, 885, 888, 1027, (2)1073, 1156.
Shirts in the works-
Shirt Wish List- 45, 48, 61, 67, 84, 86, 95, 103, 111, 126, 175, 190, 233, 236, 716, 870, 871, 1114, and any other team basically

Last edited by Pin Man : 18-06-2003 at 14:14.
Reply With Quote
  #13   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 18-06-2003, 14:16
George1902's Avatar
George1902 George1902 is offline
It's a SPAM thing...
AKA: George1083; George180
FRC #0180 (SPAM)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Rookie Year: 1998
Location: Stuart, FL
Posts: 785
George1902 has a reputation beyond reputeGeorge1902 has a reputation beyond reputeGeorge1902 has a reputation beyond reputeGeorge1902 has a reputation beyond reputeGeorge1902 has a reputation beyond reputeGeorge1902 has a reputation beyond reputeGeorge1902 has a reputation beyond reputeGeorge1902 has a reputation beyond reputeGeorge1902 has a reputation beyond reputeGeorge1902 has a reputation beyond reputeGeorge1902 has a reputation beyond repute
Quote:
Originally posted by ttedrow
Any and all qualification for the championship event should be based solely on team merit.
Well said. Short and to the point. I'd like to put on the table a system that would accomplish this in a fair manner. To be fair, we need a system that recognizes every way a team can excel in this competition. I think these criteria do that:

1). Any team who played on an alliance that went to the Semifinals at any event. (This way you can't qualify just by being picked. You have to earn it with success in the elimination matches.)

2). Any team who finishes in the top XX% during the qualification rounds. (This number can be tweaked according to how many teams have registered in FIRST, how many regionals there are, and how much room there is at the Championship event.)

3.) Any team who wins a Regional Award. (This helps to emphasize the parts of FIRST that aren't about competition.)

4.) Any previous champions or Chairman's Award winners.

A team can prove they can win in the elims (1), they can prove they are good in the qualification rounds (2), they can prove that they are good at some other aspect of FIRST (3), or they already have proven themselves (4).

This may look familiar to you. I had posted this elsewhere, but I feel it's appropriate to repost it here as well.
__________________
George

"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that."
-- Martin Luther King, Jr.
Reply With Quote
  #14   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 18-06-2003, 14:22
Jeremy Roberts's Avatar
Jeremy Roberts Jeremy Roberts is offline
Coach 4026
FRC #4026 (Global Dynamics)
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Rookie Year: 1997
Location: Atlanta, Georgia
Posts: 229
Jeremy Roberts has a brilliant futureJeremy Roberts has a brilliant futureJeremy Roberts has a brilliant futureJeremy Roberts has a brilliant futureJeremy Roberts has a brilliant futureJeremy Roberts has a brilliant futureJeremy Roberts has a brilliant futureJeremy Roberts has a brilliant futureJeremy Roberts has a brilliant futureJeremy Roberts has a brilliant futureJeremy Roberts has a brilliant future
Send a message via AIM to Jeremy Roberts
I also think we should have as many teams at Nationals as possible. If it were up to me and FIRST had the resources every team would be there. There are so many great teams which we do not get to see. Unfortunatly this is not the case.

I do not think lending or sharing points is the answer though. An alternative could be allowing semi-finalists and maybe even quarter finalists to attend and if this still does not fill nationals then open it up to teams with the highest # points under the amount needed to qualify (I think this was done last year, but I'm not sure).

Winning is not everything and FIRST has always pushed the fact that it is the experience you get out of the time spent working on the project and the people you interact with that makes it all worth while. Even though this is how I feel I think the competition/win aspect still plays a role and is important to many teams if only for the "prestige" factor.
__________________
Jeremy Roberts
GeorgiaFIRST Planning Committee | Peachtree Regional
Georgia Tech RoboJackets FIRST Co-Founder
Engineer/Mentor 4026
Former teams: 132, 608, 832, 1002, 1848
Reply With Quote
  #15   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 18-06-2003, 14:33
WakeZero WakeZero is offline
FIRST-a-holic Strategist
#1011 (CRUSH)
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Tucson, AZ
Posts: 316
WakeZero will become famous soon enough
Send a message via AIM to WakeZero Send a message via Yahoo to WakeZero
Quote:
Originally posted by "Big Mike"
on a rebutle to your statement, Gracious Proffesionalism, it doesnt nessisarily have to be a team you are close to, gee team XXx needs points maybe team XX can help them out
In a rebuttal to your point, this still leaves an unfairness to teams who are not around a lot of successful teams. Think about it, if Team A is surrounded by 10 teams with Pt's to spare, and Team B is surrounded by only 1... Team A has 9 more chances to get to Nationals then Team B. Assuming Gracious Professionalism works in this situation, lets say 10 teams not in the area have Pt's to spare... that gives Team A 20 chances, and Team B with only 11. In other words, its still unfair.
__________________
2004 Arizona Regional -- Semifinalist
2003 NAT Galileo Division -- Highest Seeded Rookie (20th)
2003 NAT Galileo Division -- 100% Autonomous Completion (7 for 7)
2003 Arizona Regional -- Rookie All-Star Award
2003 Arizona Regional -- Quarterfinalist

Alumni on Team 64, The Gila Monsters
College Mentor/Founder of Team 1011, CRUSH
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Fantasy Football! EddieMcD Chit-Chat 176 30-12-2003 18:30
Chamionship Qualification - feedback needed ASAP! dlavery General Forum 97 11-10-2003 07:17
Another question about qualification Cory General Forum 13 24-09-2002 12:29
Seeding Calculations archiver 2000 50 23-06-2002 21:57


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:50.

The Chief Delphi Forums are sponsored by Innovation First International, Inc.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © Chief Delphi