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View Poll Results: Championship configuration for seeding - your choice.
As is, Thursday - 3 practices and 6 total seeding 26 57.78%
Thursday 1 practice and 8 seeding matches 19 42.22%
Thursday NO practice and 8+ seeding matches 0 0%
Voters: 45. You may not vote on this poll

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Unread 25-07-2003, 18:02
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Championship Seeding

FIRST is asking questions as to what we want. Please consider the poll .
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Unread 25-07-2003, 18:10
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I like the 3 practice matches, mainly for the reason of time. I know that this year my team destroyed 2 gearboxes in the final matches at a regional, and we needed the time to repair them.

Now if there was a way to get the more seeding matches and still have the same amount of work/practice time....
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Unread 25-07-2003, 19:30
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Honestly, it went well this year, so I opted for the first option (As-is). One practice match was never and never will be enough to work any kinks out of a robot (especially those attending only one regional); zero is just not acceptable . Leave this aspect of the competition as it is and work on other stuff, like the game .
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Unread 25-07-2003, 19:40
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The way to get teams a chance at playing more matches is to increase field throughput, not take away practice matches.

Add fields, or add robots to the fields.
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Unread 25-07-2003, 19:46
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Quote:
Originally posted by M. Krass
The way to get teams a chance at playing more matches is to increase field throughput, not take away practice matches.

Add fields, or add robots to the fields.
They did say something about possibly having additional practice fields for all teams to use.
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Unread 25-07-2003, 20:01
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mike Martus
They did say something about possibly having additional practice fields for all teams to use.
If they were to make additional, non-scheduled practice fields available, that might go a long way toward alleviating the need for practice rounds on Thursday. It could also turn into a zoo.

Save for that, I don't think the loss of practice is worth the additional two matches per team. For many, those two matches will end up being troubleshooting matches anyway, but with greater consequence. If there's somewhere they can go to work out bugs before competing in qualification matches, between them, or after them, I think that'd help teams to make the most of the few matches they'll get to play.
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Unread 25-07-2003, 20:52
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Quote:
Originally posted by M. Krass
If they were to make additional, non-scheduled practice fields available, that might go a long way toward alleviating the need for practice rounds on Thursday. It could also turn into a zoo.
For the past few years, at the Silicon Valley and LA regional competitions, there have been practice fields (sometimes half of a field, as at SVR this year, but at least it was something) where teams have been able to wheel their robots, and test whatever they'd like. From what I've seen, it's fairly easy to keep it from turning into a "zoo."

A couple of the forseeable problems with practice fields are that a) you can't count on everyone using the teather when they're practicing, and b) if the venue isn't large enough to accomodate a practice field, you might be well out of luck.

You could very easilly trust teams to be looking out for other teams who are practicing with their radios, and have announcements concerning the need for everyone to cooperate in this matter (it's uncommon to find a team deliberately doing something wrong, like this).

Concerning spacial issues, setting up a half of a field, or even just main field objects (the center ramp and platform from 2003, for instance, or the middle barrier / bridge from 2001) without the entirety of the field. At SVR, this year, half of the ramp was constructed against the edge of tbe bleechers, in one of the far corners of the pit area. It provided a huge amount of assistance to teams, including my own. If it hadn't been there, we wouldn't have been able to get our autonomous programming done, at all.

Mad props and thanks go to team 254 and NASA Ames for providing that field setup.

<addition>
Oh, I forgot to mention specifically that teams can provide these practice fields themselves, and that just because FIRST doesn't provide it, doesn't mean you can't practice on it.
</addition>

<edition>
Durn. This post is more about regional situations than the Championships. Oh well.
</edition>
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Last edited by FotoPlasma : 25-07-2003 at 20:55.
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Unread 25-07-2003, 22:04
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I'd like to have 1 practice and as many qualifyings as possible - when you are at nationals, you expect teams to be at such a level so that they build their robots well enough to endure tear and wear. We made the mistake of not doing so last year and we learned form that mistake - this year we were in the pits for no more than an hour (excluding 1 day for reconstruction) each day. Plus, you are allowed to make spare parts back home if you break them during a regional.

I'd like to see more qualifying so that teams are allowed to play with more teams and thereby gain a better sense of what everyone is doing and what the competition is truly like. Plus, it's great to go against teams you'd normally never play against/with such as on opposite coasts of the US - or other countries.
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Unread 25-07-2003, 22:11
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Seeding

Yes I was referring to Championship. there would be plenty of room.

What is of concern is the fact that divisions of 72 teams means that without at least 8 seeding matches you cannot sort out the strong teams from the weak teams, 10 seeding matches is way better. With alliances ( if they still have them ) a team can be in the top 8 and have been carried there by great alliance partners ( that can always happen, but the more matches, the more it won't be as much a factor.

One other possibility is more teams playing at one time. In the past several years 4 teams play at a time. What if it was say 6 teams. The through put is 50% better, which means more seeding matches. A game could be designed for 6 teams, we did it at a CDI ( Chief Delphi Invitational ) several years ago and it worked great.
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Unread 25-07-2003, 22:52
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hmm.... for Regionals.. practice is an absolute. I understand that some teams are fortunate, and can participate in multiple Regionals, however: I believe things should be left as is. From my driver days - it is greatly appreciated time, to be at the location, figure out the entire lay-out, and have the chance to gather information on your competition.

I say... as-is.
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Unread 25-07-2003, 23:33
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"If it isn't broken, why fix it?"

Leave it the same, most teams need practice anyway, and if they don't show chances are that they are making repairs or modifications to fix something. I tell you, 45 would never survive without practice matches (that gives time to work).

If FIRST knows whats best for them, leave it the same
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Unread 26-07-2003, 00:19
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Just to make sure that everybody is on the same page -- this thread is referring to the NATIONAL event, not REGIONAL events.

If you're at the National event, chances are your robot is working fairly decently and that you know what to do on the field. That said, I definately believe that a practice match is still necessary to work out any problems that might have occured during shipping or whatnot. 1-2 practice matches is a reasonable maximum. 3 is probably too many.

I agree 100% with the idea to create a partial field for practice use. Especially if autonomous mode becomes more prevalent (as I suspect it might), it will be very useful to have this area available for fine tuning. It would also be VERY nice to be able to show off your bot for judges on this practice field. Attempting to demonstrate features in the pits has never been an effective way for showcasing our weeks of hard work.

-- My 2 cents.
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Unread 26-07-2003, 00:40
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Thurday practice is the most important if anything there should be a wenesday too
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Unread 26-07-2003, 00:49
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Quote:
Originally posted by Tytus Gerrish
Thurday practice is the most important if anything there should be a wenesday too
I'm with Tytus on this one. Make Wednesday 3 practice, Seeding Thursday and Friday, and Finals on Saturday. Sure it would cost more for FIRST and for hotels and food but you would get more for your money. Why make a $800 per person trip half way across the country for just 6 seeding matches when you can go to a closer regional and get like 11 seeding matches?
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Unread 26-07-2003, 00:54
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Quote:
Originally posted by sanddrag
I'm with Tytus on this one. Make Wednesday 3 practice, Seeding Thursday and Friday, and Finals on Saturday. Sure it would cost more for FIRST and for hotels and food but you would get more for your money. Why make a $800 per person trip half way across the country for just 6 seeding matches when you can go to a closer regional and get like 11 seeding matches?
More for your money? I'd be a little concerned about what you're getting for what you pay now, never mind adding additional expenses and time away from class to the equation.

Think about it. A large team's travel budget could be $10,000. For that, they get to watch their robot compete for approximately 12 minutes -- maybe twice that if they do well during the event and are fortunate enough to play the Elimination Rounds.

I'd be hesitant to agree to another night's stay and its associated costs, especially since, under the current conditions, it might mean that I'd get to see an extra 6 minutes of play time.

That's about $833/minute. You'd better not blink.
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