Anyone using other tools?

[djcapelis]

Seems like they are offering 3ds max... doesn't really seem to say that they are excluding the use of other software... sounds like we should probably e-mail for a rules clarification.

Keeping the playing field even has nothing to do with it... everyone can use the tools I'm using just as easy as I can... they're free after all... as for a bunch of links of free software, I already put that up on another thread. about 3ds max licensing I believe...

Anyone have the rules clarification information to ask FIRST a question on hand?

[Clark Gilbert]

6.1 Award Overview
All FIRST teams are invited to create a submission for the Autodesk Visualization Award (AVA)
using 3ds max™. In 2003, Autodesk is pleased to announce that the AVA will be judged at both
the Regional and Championship levels. To accomplish this, Autodesk has grouped the FIRST
Robotics Competition Regionals into five “Autodesk Award Conference” areas that are listed
below. All award-winning AVA’s at the regional level will advance to compete at the
Championship

To me the terms "using 3ds max" means using it as the modeling software, why would you want to use two different programs?

It might be me, but it seems kind of rude to use other software (rather than Autodesk stuff) to win an Autodesk award...meh what do i know....

[stevek]

Thats exactly what I'm saying. (But not just modeling- Modeling, animation, rendering // That is what the software does isn't it?)

That's why its in the rules.

They want to see what you can do with their stuff. When I was new in the business I worked on a Stephen King Book of the Month Club Commercial that won a WAVEY award. The award was for best use of LIGHTWAVE in a commercial. These companies do this stuff all the time to see what people can do with their stuff (Which surprised me with last years winner- but i digress). This competition is the AUTODESK VISUALIZATION AWARD. Some could take that as them being the sponsor of the award- which they are- but this is considered a seperate competition from the FIRST aspect of it. The Engineering awards like DELPHI Driving Tomorrows Technology is a FIRST award sponsored by DELPHI. With the AVA, Autodesk handles the judging on its own (or as the rules allow- with students and the like)

As far as keeping the field even- not many teams have extra money to go buy software on top of their other expenses. The fact that the software is free in the kit eliminates the need. I dont know about you but it seemed to be the concensus that MAYA wasn't free. Except the personal training addition- which is crippleware! So I dont know where "It's all free" came from.

[djcapelis]

I wasn't talking about using Maya...

The software I plan to use is all free and can be included in the kit.

Perfectly level and even playing field. I'll have to contact autodesk to see whether they really require 3DS max use in their award. *shrug* Doesn't really seem rude to me, I'm just using software I work better with. It certainly doesn't hurt them any... Perhaps we'll develop another animation outside of the award, just because we want to. Or, I'll establish a Blender award and donate the software and handle the judging for them! What a nice guy I am... lol.

[stevek]

Anything is worth a try!

[av11d]

A couple points...

Way back someone mentioned Shake for video editing. Shake is in no way a video editing tool. I'm not sure how you would even be able to edit video with shake. It's strictly a digital color grading, compositing, and painting tool. And it's $@#$@#$@#$@# good at that. I've read the Shake certification book and am profficient at it; I prefer it over combustion any day. It lacks particle effects, but hopefully we'll see it included in the next version. Oh, and to the person who mentioned running shake on linux... why? It costs twice as much as the mac version. Usually, you only run render-only copies of shake on linux farms.

As for the open-source vs. commercial debate. Currently, I find commercial software much more polished and powerful than the open-source counterparts such as Blender. I think as the projects grow, we'll start seeing better releases. For now, however, commercial products are better. Maya is still the king of 3D in the professional industry, and has yet to be dethroned. However, lightwave and 3ds max are starting to make their impact in the industry more and more. All three are great programs and have their advantages. While on the open-source topic, keep your eye on Jashaka ( sf.net/jashaka ). It's shake-type compositing tool that has some very talented developers working on it.

Personally, I have no objection if you use something besides 3ds max in the competition. We used some 3rd party plugins for 3ds max, but we never used another standalone 3d app.

[Matt Hallock]

It's not really a problem that people use programs other than 3DSMAX. Most animators pick one program and become very skilled in it, some are lucky enough to have the time to learn Maya and 3DSMAX. The problem is a lot of modelling programs are far different from 3DSMAX and the same logic can't be applied to two programs. As for the animation, if you started to tell people that they could only use 3DSMAX to make their animation, then how would I make my textures? I'm good with procedurals, but I have to make my masking and bump maps in photoshop or some other program of the likes. You just can't do it any other way. Video editing can be done minimally in 3DSMAX, and honestly if you set up the scene the way you intended it to be you should only need to do color correction. Most effects could be done with particle systems.

I personally stick with Premiere, 3DSMAX 5 or 6, Photoshop 6, and I use default rendering with my own lighting. (It consists of about 25 omni light instances into sphere. Allows for great daylight and color control.)

[stevek]

The last few post sounded as if it is up to us to decide whaty we want to use. I am talking about the Rules of the Competition, not my opinion (as I've stated in the past I'm more proficient at Lightwave).

There are reasons to limit the tools- 1) this competition is sponsored by Autodesk- Maker of MAX) 2) the rules State- 3D Animation using 3D Studio Max. 3) Everyone is given the software each year. 4) Everyone is on the Same Playing Field - Different software will be better or worse at different things, makes it more dificult to Judge- One task may require more talent in Max and is simple to do in Maya.

It is obvious that you cant do Photoshop stuff in Max. If you read the rules were talking about doing 3D Animation using 3D Studio Max- Photoshop is not 3D Animation so it's not conflicting with a rule. Photoshop is not a 3D Renderer so it is not effecting the outcome of the final image. It is used to Prep the images used in the 3DS Max scene as Background Images or Texture Maps. The Post Program in Max can combine scenes and composite and such, however, if you edit the final footage in an editor, you are not effecting the 3D aspect of the project so it is not conflicting with the rules.

I dont feel we have a choice here. And it used to bother me, until I realized that this is a seperate competition sponsored by Autodesk, not a FIRST competition sponsored by Autodesk. with the difference they can write the rules any way theu want.

[Salik Syed]

we can use 3rd party renderers i just think 3/4 all work should be done in 3dsmax

[Matt Hallock]

I wasn't really aware that people used anything other than 3DSMAX in these competitions, since it was sponsored by Discreet. I feel that it is all right to use Maya or Blender or whatever you want. If you outlaw the third party programs then you also outlaw the third party plugins.

The rules are kind of hazy, especially on things like Photoshop. Photoshop or Paint Shop Pro are components to making the animation. The rules stipulate making the animation with 3DS MAX, God only knows if that means all aspects of it.

[djcapelis]

As for your 3 and 4 questions stevek...

3) Everyone can get blender too... just go to blender.org... everyone can also get wings3d, which many use...

4) Everyone is on a level playing field, some decide to use all the resources available to all teams, some don't.

[Matt Hallock]

Originally posted by djcapelis
As for your 3 and 4 questions stevek...

3) Everyone can get blender too... just go to blender.org... everyone can also get wings3d, which many use...

4) Everyone is on a level playing field, some decide to use all the resources available to all teams, some don't.

Maya is not available to all teams, it certainly isn't to mine, not that I'd use it anyhow.

[djcapelis]

Hey, take away all the pripriotary crap if you want, but leave me my blender and the rest of our animation team our precious wings3d.

They don't make the playing field uneven, I have no objections to getting rid of the things that do. But clearly those objections cannot be applied to freely downloadable software.

[Matt Hallock]

Oh, I thought you were speaking of Maya, sorry.