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  #16   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 19-02-2002, 20:58
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As another member of team 840, I'd kind of like to agree with Turbo although I have a different twist on the whole thing. I know a lot of people make a big deal about the competition, and I guess that's where some of the inspiration comes into it and all (I havn't been to one yet), but if you ask me, it doesn't matter whether you win or lose, or get beat by some beautifully engineered powerhouse robot. What matters is that less than a year ago our High School had no robotics team, and coming out of these 6 weeks, at least most of us are addicted to building and already coming up with designs for our next robot. It really is amazing. That's where I think the inspiration is, and you just can't get that unless you know you can build the whole robot yourself without (and no offense intended Matt) the "magic machinists" coming in and getting you out of a bind.

However, something else to realize is that our team has a particularly unique situation. 1) We are actually pretty equipped as far as a rookie team is concerned, having found an incredibly generous mentor that bought a mill for us, etc. 2) We have an amazing group of top-notch seniors that wanted to see this happen. We more or less came inspired and we were willing to do whatever it took to make this robot work. Our key students have been putting in time from 3:00 -> 8:00 every weekday for the past 6 weeks, and probably around another 20 hours on the weekends. Heck, we put in 17 going from monday to tuesday morning. 3) None of our mentors ever having been involved in a FIRST competition before, so there wasn't an opportunity for them to say: "oh yeah, just do that like this," because as far as the particulars of what we had to work with were concerned, they knew just as little as the students.

The result? We have a nice, 104% student built robot (we had some adults help us in terms of man power when punching out about 5 lbs of the holes at the end, which counts as negative work, giving us a total student contribution over 100% ), and a bunch of inspired students. Sadly, I don't see this happening in the years to come. I don't think our current junior class has the kind of student-base to draw upon to pull it off. In addition, a couple of this years seniors will likely be coming back to help for at least a couple weeks of the competition, at which point the tendency will be to take over and show people how stuff is done. I can't imagine being there and not wanting to get my hands dirty. However, we're going to try our hardest to recruit and train so that next year another team of all students can pull it off.

As much as I'd like to say that all students is the only way to go, I don't know if it's possible. Our team this year may very well have been a fluke. Only time will tell. But just so everyone knows, it can be done, so why don't all of you engineers wait a little bit and see what the students can do before you jump in there and make stuff for 'em, you might be surprised.
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Unread 19-02-2002, 21:10
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Response to Matt & others

Many refer to Chief Delphi as a bench mark, and example. Sometimes portrayed as great, often as a big money team and many times as a style they do not like, often as rich kids.

Some basic team facts:

Many of our students(most) are economically disadvantaged by even the lowest of standards.

Our high school ( I know I will hear about this ) is not the strongest in academics. Lack of experienced teachers is a reality.
In fact I say we have a almost non-existant physics and math program. Our general student body has no regard for learning. They exist to disrupt. They wander the halls. Our drop out rate is sad.

Our team members are special. They have a dream. We found them because of FIRST.

We have a mandatory FIRST Class. We teach communication skills, math skills (reading a ruler) and give most their first experience at holding and using a tool.

We focus on inspiration!

We have 4 students this year accepted and will be attending Kettering (GMI) and ALL seniors are accepted in college programs in a variety of subjects, many engineering as a result of our exposure and FIRST. We work hard at this.

The coaches (teachers), the engineers are role models for many students that need that special HARD push to climb out of where they are.

We are brutal, we are demanding, we are loving, we are what they need at this point in their life. Too often we are their parents.

I am the "shop" teacher. I have a drill press, a band saw. The engineers brought in many tools I only dream of having on a small budget. We are blessed to be sponsored by Delphi.

Yes we have parts made for us. The students learn about outsourcing. They watch, they learn, they participate to the safe level they can in any way they can. Yes this way is expensive, we have no choice.

Why am I saying this.... well after many,hard days of build we are exhausted. Was it worth it. Yes. If only for that 1 student that gained a new spark in their eye. I know it is more than 1.

FIRST remains the BEST thing that has happened to our school in decades of the decay of our community and student body.

Please take the time to just say hi. Show them you are a caring person. We all need that.
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Unread 19-02-2002, 21:16
Jason_384 Jason_384 is offline
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the resemblance to baseball....

Am I the only one who see's that this is the exact same argument that surrounds baseball and its lack of a salery cap?? I think before we start complaining about how first is structered or how it is "unfair" we should look at the faults of other competitive activites that have the same issues. Do any of the people who post here really want to divide first into 3 divisions just because some people do not have the sponsorship of companies with hi tech machine shops? Wouldn't that deteriorate from first as a sport? From what i have seen in my first year being part of this sport the respect for each other team reguardless of how pretty there robot looks like is tremendous. If FIRST was split into divisions that respect would deteriorate right?? Not that much at first but then over time you would get people who would be concetied because they were in the expert division or w/e.

Well these are just my thought and please before we instigate any huge moral/ethical debates lets get through the season and then lets discuss this stuff cause this is an isusse that shold wait its not goin to get changed anytime soon so lets concentrate on the rest of this season and then lets get a disscussion goin bout this. Well this is all I gota say.


Jason
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Unread 19-02-2002, 21:39
meaubry meaubry is offline
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Maybe you only partially "get it"

I'm an engineer on team 47, I will at least try and attempt to respond to the questions at hand.
1) Is it fair that small student built robots compete with "big money, engineer designed and/or built robots"?
2) Someone (Matt) wanted to know how or what our philosophy or approach to FIRST was?

The answer to #1) the question wasn't really clarified till later in the thread when Turbo stated "I just have a hard time with looking at other robots that it is totally obvious that the students did not build it and I have to go to the competition and get my butt whooped by this killer robot, it just kind of destroys our hopes before we even get there."
My response is - see Lori's post in this thread - she get's it - she worked for Dean and was obviously listening. But, let me add this - the FIRST experience CANNOT be, no - SHOULD NOT BE - judged as FAIR or UNFAIR, based on the financial commitment of a company, but more importantly, the level of dedication that the people have contributed to the program. Measure it in hours of the amount of time interfacing with the students, explaining, teaching, and cooperatively developing the design and the strategy that they will utilize, or in developing and producing the Chairman's award, Animation, or in developing the Competitive Assessment, or in Marketing their team, or in Fund raising - Doesn't matter to me HOW you want to slice it - MONEY isn't what differentiates a Great Team, Great Time, and Great FIRST experience. I'm sorry if you feel bad about "getting whooped by a killer robot that the students didn't build" BUT, that is NOT a problem that FIRST has created - it's something that is a by-product of living in an "unfair world" - It's also very clear that FIRST doesn't exist to promote "student designed, built, and completely funded robotic programs. But, on the other hand, FIRST is smart enough to know that, if that's the only way to get a foot in the door, or to inspire a single student - it still could be an awesome experience. So. let's just end the "Engineer built or bought vs Student only built" arguement as it is meaningless in FIRST's eyes - although I'm sure it makes you feel better to get that off your chest. By the way, if success is measured using inspiration aas the metric - I would think that every school could rejoice in knowing that this program helped shape the direction of many of the students that were lucky enough to enjoy the FIRST experience - I can vouch for many, many students that I have had the pleasure of mentoring at PCHS.
As to the 2nd question - (Matt) Our program is set up such that the FIRST team members, do take a half semester of FIRST Robotics - they have a class during the day and lesson plans are developed relative to the FIRST robotics experience. Mr. Martus and the rest of the Education Coaches do a fantastic job. This program is a year round program, with alot of hard work and committment needed and provided by many Engineers and Teachers. I'm very proud of what we have accomplished in the past 7 years - I know it has made a difference - and that's all that matters.
I am not sure how to deal with the inequities that are inherently part of any event of this magnitude - I suppose 3 classes or groups may allow some folks to "feel good" about competing with an equitable opponent - but, it seems like alot more work, and more room for teams to exploit others. I must admit I just don't know what the solution is - I liken it to the Westminister Dog Show - so many classes and groups of dogs competing to determine the champion of the breed, then all the champions get together to determine the BEST in SHOW. Doesn't matter what the size, shape, weight, group, or class - or how much the dog costs, how much it was trained - one of those dogs emerge as champion (the rest of the dogs are not envious, but maybe their human trainers, owners, fans, etc. might be). My advice is this - Nothing can make the FIRST experience FAIR, and that is NOT what should be the focus - instead, try as hard as possible to "Celebrate the things that are relavent" - Your team accepted a challenge (by the way, winning matches and being crowned champion wasn't that challenge) - you (hopefully) successfully designed and built a robot that meets all the technical requirements including size and weight, and also it may even function the way it was intended to (yeah). Along the way, I hope you were succussful in mentoring the students and helping them recognize the benefits and advantages associated with the vast number of opportunities in the fields of Science and Technology. If you were even remotely successful (one student), you have succeeded.
Good luck to all this season - Stay focused on the students, not the outcome of the game.

Last edited by meaubry : 19-02-2002 at 22:00.
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Unread 19-02-2002, 22:06
Rick Gibbs Rick Gibbs is offline
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Just think of where you can go from here.

I used to agree with you, but I have a different opinion now. When our team (T-Rx, 145) started six years ago, we had practically no machining or welding experience, I was the only engineer on the team (and I'm Chemical, not Mechanical), no access to a professional machine shop, no CAD experience, and struggled to put a running robot together. It was frustrating, but it was a blast - as fun as any other year we've had. Bottom line - I can completely understand where you are right now - I was there. AND the great part is that we all learned more by trying to be creative with what we had.

Since then, the program has improved each year. We've added a couple mechanical engineers. We have CAD and Inventor 'experts'. We've added an aluminum welder who teaches the students how to weld. We have the support of a machine shop with a CNC mill. We have volunteers from 5 local companies.

It's not about where you are, it's about where you can go. Enjoy where you are now - you never be there again. Strive for continuous improvement year after year.
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Unread 19-02-2002, 22:12
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Many Thanks!

We had some of the parts for our bot professionally machined, too. I think it's appropriate for me to throw out a big thank you to our machining sponsor, Apex Tool & Die, for all your help!

We're in the same boat, we don't have a major corporate sponsor, and we're without a great deal of financial backing. We don't have many engineers on our team either, only one if I'm counting right.

I consider that an advantage. Everyone is involved. That's important. At some point this season, every member of our team has spoken up, taken initiative, and been intuitive. That atmosphere takes the driver's seat to winning.

Here's my suggestion for the remainder of this season, and 2003 as well: have fun. And don't let anyone sit around, that's not good. If someone's standing around, put a tool in their hand. People open up when they're told they can do something.

There's not a single person on our team that's not constantly involved with something. Whether it's lettering a crate, writing an award submission, communicating information, designing, developing...you get the idea...there's a lot of team spirit here!

Good luck everyone!

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Unread 19-02-2002, 22:48
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A bit unfair

Wow, I was sad to read this post. It showed me a side of FIRST I did not expect to see. Talk about GRACIOUS PROFESSIONALISM what happened to that. I have enjoyed reading the Chief Delphi Forum since September when I became interested in starting a Robotics Club at our high school. I am in awe of their commitment to us all.
When I decided to commit our school and the students to this endeavor I did not think for one minute we would win a competition. I did hope that I would get the students involved in working together toward a common goal and inspire them to be better students. I had 53 students sign up for the club and 20 staff members. We had fundraisers, spoke at different civic clubs, made a connection with the University of New Haven, and knocked on a lot of doors to get the word out about what we were doing. We did finish our robot today and I am very proud of our students for that accomplishment. Paradox is not an awesome robot but it is the best our students could build given our parameters. They are very happy that they are going to Richmond to compete in a regional. If nothing else I expect that they will be Gracious Professionals and enjoy and learn from this new experience. Thank You NASA for sponsoring us.
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Unread 19-02-2002, 23:12
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I keep thinking about this (and not doing my hw). I know a lot of you still don't think the whole competition aspect is fair, but I wouldn't have it any other way. I hear people throwing around terms like different levels of competition. BAH! Maybe it's just my competetive nature, but I would never sink to the level of voluntarily competing in a lower division than anyone else. I don't care if I'm disadvantaged, I'll drive my robot around right up there with the big guys. The way I see it, I'm just a really bad engineer, and I'm darn proud of it.

You guys make it seem like engineers aren't people or something. If a robot is really awesome, it doesn't matter who made it - there was still a lot of hard work and time that went into making it, and anybody that had any involvement in building their own robot will be able to appreciate what either some student or some engineer did. I'm personally going to congratulate every cool robot I see regardless of who made it just because somebody put some hours into it and made something that I can look at and admire, and maybe even aspire to.

If you think you're being "deprived" and "disadvantaged" that much, don't complain about it. Work your butt off next year, and compete and give all the other engineers a run for their money. If you're motivated enough you can do it. If you're going onto college, etc., your access to cool tools and such will increase. Get a job at a machine shop and become one of those engineers and find some team you think is disadvantaged and help them. But remember that you've been on the other side and keep your teams appearance in mind. Don't get a reputation of doing all the work for them, let the students do it for themselves. All it takes is time. This competition is what you make of it. It's an opportunity to get students involved and inspire them. If getting your butt whooped by an engineer makes you want to go out and become one, I think that Dean is accomplishing exactly what he wants.

Remember, in the long run, we're all on the same team. We have bigger things to worrry about like colonizing mars, extending the human lifespan or preventing the eventual energy death of the universe.
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Unread 20-02-2002, 08:55
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Students can't always do the work here

As a final note from me on this subject since I seem to look bad ,because I say that the engineers on my team did most if not all of the machining though the students have assembled it all. There are more reasons than just: The engineers took over the project and didn't let the students touch anything because we didn't want them to learn. One of the biggest reasons that students can't do much of the machining work is simply because of the rules of the GM shop that we work in, I am making no joke about the liability that larger companies take on by having 30-50 people, mostly students, unfamiliar with the facility and machining in general. People get hurt all of the time in a company this big and I have voice mails of peoples fingers and arms being seriously injured by machine tools. All of the teams that do the work at the schools have a much different situation than at a large company. (we are even more of a special case because many things also need to be done by the UAW trades on site because of more rules) Pretty much the most students can use in our facility are hand tools and a drill press, and even the drill press have a history of injuries when fixtured parts come loose or people with loose clothes and jewlery get into it. Just 1 serious accident will be all that is required to shut this program down here. So in this case it isn't right to rip on people because they build a different robot than your because certainly every team in this wonderful event has a different situation than yours, and different resources available than yours.
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Unread 20-02-2002, 09:39
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let me address dtool41 remarks-on gracious professionalism

this discussion is part of gracious professionalism- not once have i seen anyone in here "dump" on another team or their remarks
except for your arguments that we have not exhibited gracious professionalsim and shown as you termed "another side of FIRST'
(i am not insinuating that you are but it seems that you are unhappy that people feel this way and have expressed it here)
this has been posibbly one of the best discourses over that past three years that i have been involved with this program dealing with how
people work with what they have (or dont have) (sponsers, money/ no money)

(big rant on)

it either fish or cut bait time--------

heck I even gave up my stipend to fund the team this year because one of our sponser did not give us the $ as they had said they would (but they gave $$ to sponsor the regional so that OK in my book)


we have risen to a fine moment- even and open discourse on what we percieve as inequities in the system (bad schools, bad sponsers, no euipment vs the exact opposite)
and everybody has done great with their bots

as for engineer built to students built
that is entirely a in-team situation
i think a mix of both doing the work is better that 100 percent either way-
my kids (MY TEAMMATES) have learned alot form the enigneers and have taken over some of the more basic operations of desinging the robot- they have only stepped in where we were at a total loss or were missing something obvious that we did not take into accout

(big rant off)

this argument comes up every year!!!!
and they have been nasty (very nasty at times) with very invective emails being sent diparaging ones birth right and circumstances of ones birth

will is ever change - most like not (and probably for the best)
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Last edited by Andrew Dahl : 20-02-2002 at 14:16.
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Unread 20-02-2002, 20:50
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While I do agree that a lot of the rules are a little partial towards the high budget teams, they still have to come up with a design just like everyone else, and that design can have flaws. Sure they may get a little more publicity, have more resources and be more photogenic, but and underdog team can win. Trust me, my team has done it time and time again with robots made of random metal and plywood. Don't let the fat budgets of some of the other teams get to you, because success is that much sweeter when your robot beats them and they spent more on one of thier wheels then you did on your entire robot.
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Unread 20-02-2002, 22:06
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I will comment on this.

I'm not sure where out team falls into the grand spectrum of money things.

I know our kids individually fund raise 250 dollars each. I know we fund raise thru the team over 7 or 8 thousands dollars ontop of that. (Via car washes, Candy Sales, sponsered dances, pizza nights. First is a Year round program for us)

Our students have always had a large contribution of our bot design.

Most of our grabber (Watch for it, it's amazing) was milled and machined by one of our female student team members. The design was worked out on paper by 4 or 5 students and one engineer.

Our drive train was designed by an alumni member (non engineering student).

I'm a phone and data network adminsitrator, and I even came up with the obvious answer to a design problem that stumped us for a few hours.

And this is only this years robot. Our team (Team #88 TJ²) has always been one of the more well known teams, always doing well. (Ok, so last year we stunk, but the other 6 years we've always finished in the top 5, even had Highest seed in Florida once)
We never had expensive robots. We just had good idea's. We've won awards for pickup designs.

I liken it to Delphi. Our team and theres have always had huge mutual respect for each other. We consider them a real "Class Act". The've never had really "expensive" designs, just really innovative idea's that work well. Crab drive (I'm surprised they haven't trademarked that name) , the pickup mechanism from 2 years ago, stuff like that.

As for the comment at the beginning that how is it fair for teams that have worked out tranmissions in advance, I would like to say ..... Malarky!!!

The Chipawah's are new this year. Yet eveyone that has an elaborate transmission is using them.

We've got a three speed transmission this year, and we 've always been direct drive in the past. Yet we've never seen a Chipawah before in our lives.

Well, this message got longer than I thought, but that makes it fit into this thread, which has mostly all long messages.
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Last edited by mpking : 20-02-2002 at 22:11.
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Unread 21-02-2002, 00:00
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money isnt really the issue, i dont really see how money can buy u a robot in this competition, theres only a limited amout of things you can buy. Its the fact that this is trying to be a competition between *high schoolers* to see who can build the best robot. If we wanted to see what a school could come up with it should be an expo or something, but its the idea that a winner is declared and everything. Everybody on my team, especially the mentors believe that mentors should not be allowed to touch the robot at all. yes i know that in this everybodys a winner because something extraordinary is going on and everybody is learning, but even at this age people dont like being bullied by the elders (robots built by engineer fairies that come in at nite and build robots, or teams that only let the kids watch). Also, some teams were saying how their students arent capable of building a robot so they have to watch the engineers build it. Well #1, how is it fair that my team is capable of building a robot all by ourself, only students touching it, and then get beat by a school with students that arent able to build one so engineers built it for them. and #2, why dont you just let the kids build the robot to see what they are capable of, at our school this is the first year and our teachers told us a million times how hard building a robot would be and all of a sudden we totally suprised our selves when everything started working, so give the kids a shot, you'll never know what they are capable of untill you let them try it.

I know i should quit ranting on this subject but i cant let it go, oh well
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Unread 21-02-2002, 01:29
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For better or worse, here are my thoughts.
My team (116), as I think about it, is fairly well off. We have a farily compleate shop with a used mill and lathe, two drill presses and a table saw. We have 7 or so wonderful engineers and Dave. 35 or so students. As this topic has come up I have givin it thought and come to realize that once the ideas start coming, I don't see most of the engineers as any diffrent than the students. They tend to be right in there, and the students are there too. It seems, to me at least, that they treat the students as equals for the most part. When some things get outlandish as deadlines aprach, they will speak up and focus the students.
Most of the physical machining is done by the students. I know thats what I enjoy the most, the machining. Making something that fits the dimensions given me makes me happy.
Our students are there as long, or longer than our engineers who have familys and jobs and kids. But they still come, even when we spend 40 hours the last weekend, and stay til 3:30 on Tuesday morning, the adults are still there working along side the students.
As to which is right or wrong, I don't think there is a clear answer to that question. I remember MOE not because of their bot, but because of their hideous green shirts and their enthusiasm. And the Gila Monsters and the Gila, Glia, GliaGliaGlia dance. While winning on the field is great, and is very exciting, there is more. The enthusiasm of the students participating is to me what makes a succesful team.
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Unread 21-02-2002, 11:08
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asher will become famous soon enough
We just seem to have the prefect mesh of engineers and students. Our head engineer is an electrical engineer and fully admits we have more mechanical ability than he does (and it also doesn't hurt he's a 3 year old in a balding mans body) We also have machinists that work for the university that supports us and they are wonderful, after all we are only high school kids and its great to see them help us make our crazy ideas work (even if they just end up hung on the wall ) We aren't a "well to do" team in any sort of the phrase. We are primarily student built but I feel a lot is "learned" just in dealing with the adult type persons, and because of all this our team is a family. Its great when everyone goes to the grocery store and they ask if were all related, that's just our team dynamic. And I being the only girl, I love having 11 brothers
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