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  #46   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 21-06-2001, 17:05
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Nationals

I have always personally liked the closeness of regionals better. I love the fact that people stay and watch almost all the matches at the regionals, it makes competition so much more exciting. the thing I enjoy about nationals though, is the distance people travel to all gather in one spot to share their ideas, robots, and spirit with one another. Their is no other competition quite like it. FIRST touches many peoples lives and brings people from all walks of life together. It is great to see teams with diversity, and jocks, and "geeks", and people from every group come togther for one cause. The excitement and enourmous size of the nationals is what people remeber, if the event became smaller and more select it would discourage teams if they could never quite make it to that level. Could you imagine FIRST without the nationals open to everyone? What would you feel is your team wasn't good enough at regionals to make it to the national competition. If FIRST wants to encourage team work it will be a very hard thing to make the nationals open to only high seeds in the regionals. Also, if it was onyl open to regional winners, what would happen when a team who could only afford to make it to one regional wins? How will they make it to nationals? Or if your team can't afford to attend a regional and could only make nationals? Would that team automatically get into the national? Just some thoughts on selective nationals....
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Unread 25-06-2001, 19:48
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Lightbulb Idea...

Do it like the Olympics. At the end of the season, have all the teams that attended Nationals vote on a stadium for the next nationals. Debates can be held. Each team gets one vote (probably an online vote around May). Winning stadium gets the first opportunity to hold the nationals. If they can't, it goes back to a vote. This way, if they choose to hold the event, they get about 10 months to prepare for it.

Oh, and 2 words: Pontiac Silverdome. You have the Central Michagan cluster there, and it can hold 93,000 people.
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Unread 26-06-2001, 15:05
Carolyn Duncan Carolyn Duncan is offline
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Hey Justin,
About your comment of renting out an arena and the expense. What about when FIRST rents out Epcot for the evening for all of us? That can't be too cheap can it? And nats already being limited. Yes they are and I don't agree with that. There has got to be some way to eliminate limitations.

C~ya,
Carolyn who doesn't like conformity or limitations, and pushes both to the point that no one thought was possible just to prove them wrong.
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Unread 26-06-2001, 17:42
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Unhappy Please... Please just understand FIRST's point of view...

Quote:
Originally posted by Carolyn Duncan
Hey Justin,
About your comment of renting out an arena and the expense. What about when FIRST rents out Epcot for the evening for all of us? That can't be too cheap can it? And nats already being limited. Yes they are and I don't agree with that. There has got to be some way to eliminate limitations.

C~ya,
Carolyn who doesn't like conformity or limitations, and pushes both to the point that no one thought was possible just to prove them wrong.


As much as I hate limiting National... I have to say that FIRST HAVE to do that eventually. I would even say that FIRST should do it next year because the size is so big already...

The two reasons why I say this:

The Price of getting a bigger place anywhere have grown more and more that it just get ridiculously expensive to have a bigger event.

There are so many teams in one place that FIRST will never have the personal or the resource to have a completely organized competition.


There is just no good way of facing this problem... Yes, even though National was made so that ALL teams could go, but next year we are probably facing 600 teams all over the national. So, one way of letting every team to go to National is to raise the entry fee to $10,000, or some how FIRST just have to start making money through some other way... (You see what I am getting at?)

Again, I have to stress that this is a problem with NO perfection solution. We might not like it, but that's the way it is.

SO, no matter what people want, limitation is a MUST even thought it's not a good solution. Remember, FIRST is just people like us... They are facing the same problem as we do, and they don¡¦t intentionally limit the size of National just to make people angry. It's a really tough job they are doing, and I just hope you all have the heart to respect FIRST's decision...

Couple of things I've heard that FIRST might be doing to limit teams at National:

Odd numbered teams will allowed to go to National in one year, and then Even numbered teams will be allowed to go to National the year after, and they rotate between the two group.

Also, teams who are doing really well at Regionals deserve to go to National because they should be given the chance to prove how good they are in the National level.

Finally, teams with really good record from pass years deserve to go to National... There are teams who did a really good job in the pass years who might have some trouble this coming year so they won't be able to have good result (for whatever reasons) at regional... Teams like team 22 Chatsworth HS who won the Chairman Award this year totally deserve to go to National next year for what they did, even though their robot didn't win a regional competition...

All these are to make sure the students on a team will get a chance to go to National IF they want to... while maintaining the quality of National...
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Unread 27-06-2001, 08:01
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Quote:
Originally posted by Carolyn Duncan
Hey Justin,
About your comment of renting out an arena and the expense. What about when FIRST rents out Epcot for the evening for all of us? That can't be too cheap can it? And nats already being limited. Yes they are and I don't agree with that. There has got to be some way to eliminate limitations.

C~ya,
Carolyn who doesn't like conformity or limitations, and pushes both to the point that no one thought was possible just to prove them wrong.
For the most part Disney foots a good part of the bill for Nationals. There is some money changing hands between FIRST and Disney but for the most part, Disney pays. FIRST would not have nationals if Disney hadn't stepped in back in '95 (right year?) to sponsor it. And realize that if we moved to an arena we'd probably lose the Disney sponsorship.

Matt
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Unread 27-06-2001, 08:58
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what about the possibility of using all the Disney sites (calif and Fl) to hold coastal championships

i know its tons of extra $$ to travel but more teams would be able to participate


dahl
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Unread 27-06-2001, 10:36
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Quote:
Originally posted by Andrew Dahl
what about the possibility of using all the Disney sites (calif and Fl) to hold coastal championships

i know its tons of extra $$ to travel but more teams would be able to participate


dahl
team497
Well, Disney would have to agree to it first. The other part is that there isn't too much space in Disneyworld (CA). Disney has a lot more property in FL than they do in CA (by an order of magnitude).

Matt
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Unread 02-07-2001, 18:44
Carolyn Duncan Carolyn Duncan is offline
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Well, there is so much that could be said. I guess I'd like to point out to Ken that if more teams sign up to go to nationals there will automatically be more money to pay for the larger arena. If Disney does pay for most of nationals, what then is the registration money used for? To the best of my knowledge the judges and other officiaals are volunteers and some of the tents and the Einstein field must be from previous use. I realize that the fees don't pay for everything but they have to pay for a certain amount or it wouldn't be worth Disney's time to get involved. I am not totally against limiting all of nationals, but I would like to have as many people there as possible. Maybe the way to solve everything is for Dean to buy another small island and use it for the national competition.
C~ya,
Carolyn
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Unread 03-07-2001, 07:56
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Disney pays for part of nationals. FIRST pays for part of nationals. Most of the income FIRST brings in is spent on the FRC. FIRST's operating budget from fiscal year 2000 was included in the program this year. Off the top of my head, I believe that year registration fees totaled about a $1,000,000. While that seems like a lot, it's important to remember that FIRST employs about 20 people (including contractors). Their salaries take a good deal of the money that FIRST brings in. And of course there are costs associated with moving all the equipment around, moving the FIRST empoyees and volunteers to the various regionals and nationals among other expenses. Reading the budget was interesting for me at least so I invite you to take a look at it.

Matt
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Unread 03-07-2001, 09:57
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The budget was on the one of the first few pages of the program from nationals.

...Not that I can find my program in my room
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Unread 03-07-2001, 12:20
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Actually, I like the idea of Dean buying another country. I mean island. Island.

In all seriousness, buying another island probably would eliminate the size matter, but we'd have to figure out a way to get there. If it is close to the mainland, there could be ferries going back & forth, or even a bridge. But it can't be in the middle of nowhere unless the island is big enough for hotels to fit all the teams (and a large swimming pool, of course ), and an airport. It is a good idea though, and it would put another island in the fledgling Kamen Empire (inside joke).
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Unread 04-07-2001, 16:55
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Re: Well, how about this....

Quote:
Originally posted by Jessica Boucher
...I know this sounds kinda cutthroat, but how about just first-come, first-serve? (pardon any puns I may have made). First 300 teams to sign up come, whether its rookie team 856-something or a multiple regional winner?
My thoughts exactly

However, I'd much rather see them allow every team who wants to come to make it to nationals... even if this means using more disney property or moving to a different location. I thought I heard someone (maybe Dean) say at Nationals that Disney says that as long as FIRST keeps growing, disney will find a way to accomodate that number of teams.

Patrick
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Unread 05-07-2001, 01:55
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Just a theory

Here's my two cents, so get ready for it because here it comes!

When you get down to it, not every team is going to be able to make it to nationals. For the life of me I can't remember just what the number was, but Dean at Nationals this previous year was talking about how quickly FIRST was going, there simply isn't anywhere that can take in that many people. Nevermind the venue, think hotels, transportation, etc. etc. etc. So, conlusion number 1 is that Nationals must eventually be limited.

Given that Nationals must be limited (I'm not saying that that's good, I'm just facing some facts), the question becomes how to limit it. This is the difficult part. Many ideas have been tossed around, and I have yet to see a bad one in the bunch. Saying that winners deserve to see how they do nationally makes sense, but so does first come, first serve. My idea is this - yes, make Nationals available to only those who qualify, but make it a much smaller (yes, I did say smaller) deal. Kind of along the same ideas as super regionals, enforce going to regionals instead of nationals. If nationals isn't nearly as big a deal as going to the regionals, then people won't be as upset when they can't go (for whatever reason that may be).

Is this the right answer? I honestly don't know. Is it just another idea to shout out and maybe get the juices flowing so someone else can come up with a better idea? Yes. Like Dean said, in the however many years he says its going to take to have FIRST offered in every high school, having everyone at Nationals just can't happen. It'd probably be for the best if we started planning for that now.

~Tom~

P.S. Please don't think I'm a pessimist! I'm really a nice guy, honest!
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Unread 06-07-2001, 23:09
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Wink limiting nat's

I prsonally would hate to see the nat's limited. But, i hope this may clear up a couple of questions. On a recent trip to Paris (yes the one in France) to promote FIRST at the Paris Air Show, i got the chance to talk to David Brown 1 on 1. And we talked about the nat's. He said that Disney is begging for mercy. He told me that we have outgrown Epcot. Remember, the 12,000 or more crazy FIRSTers are in attition ot their normal crowds and we are simply putting a strain on their limited resources. He said that they are exploring a number of options for the future including Disneyland in CA, and using the Wide World of Sports area. Additionally, he told me that if the current rate of growth occurs they may have to cap the nationals next year, Thus, for admittance, they have to explore new options. One of them may be on a point system based on past performance and awards, kinda like the method that Ken mentioned in an earlier post. Anyway, this was information was first hand out of David Brown, and i hope it makes some amount of sense.

Now my personal opinion: Disneyland is a really good idea. They have the Anaheim Convention Center directally across the street, which holds thousands of people. Also, there are dozens of new hotels that have gone up since the opening of the California Adventure. While it is not nearly as big as Disney World, it could accomodate a multitude of teams, and there is adequate lodging within walking distance. Remember, only 1/2 the teams would go to a split national championship Oh, and i live 30 minutes away, so my team would not have to spend a lot of money. Anyway, that's just my humble opinion.

Sean (who has posted on CD for the first time)
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Unread 07-07-2001, 14:23
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while i can accept first-come first-serve as a means of limitting nats, i have to strongly oppose any other means of limitation, like having to qualify to go. many of my reasons for this have already been posted, so i wont repeat them. one that i dont think anyone has mentioned, however, is this:

to qualify for nats by doing well in regionals gives teams with a huge budget even more unfair advantage. how many teams went to 2 or more regionals? the teams that go to multiple regionals are almost exclusively teams that have been around for a long time, have enormous budgets, and strong support in both the student body and the faculty/administration.

these teams are given extra chances to go to nats.

furthurmore, to get these enormous budgets a team needs strong faculty/administration support, which is most readily gotten through support from the student body. one of the main reasons that people originally get involved with first is the idea that 'hey this means i get to go to disney' im not saying that this is a good reason to do first, or that its the reason people stick with first. it is, however, something that gets people to join a robotics team in the first place.
take away nats, and you take away the guarenteed trip to disney. people then say 'hey i could go to disney, if we win at a regionals...thats interesting' then forget it figuring that its not like theyll win the regionals.
if we lose student support, then first either cant grow, or its growth will stagnate.

plus, these same multi-reginal teams throw a wrench into the equation: what if they win more then one regional?
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