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  #46   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 24-02-2002, 13:31
meaubry meaubry is offline
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Oh, its about recognition, dah!

l1jmx,
Sorry, I thought this was about INSPIRATION and what is fair! If the student built robots want recognition that is a different story. It should have it's own thread for people to comment on. I didn't know that the R in FIRST meant recognition of whom built the best robot, I thought it was meant to RECOGNIZE all the wonderful things that the fields of Science and Technology had to offer. I for one have always been amazed and inspired by the 100% student built machines - for the most part they have made me feel good about the students involvement and dedication to completing the FIRST experience.
If RECOGNITION is what you desire, maybe Raul is correct about divisions. At least that way the student built teams can compete against each other, and everyone else could continue the way FIRST was intended to be set up.
At least that way, the student built teams would have the focused attention and maybe the recognition that they think goes along with the FIRST experience.
Thanks for clearing up (at least in my mind) what the thread was about - I agree that fairness and recognition do not necessarily go hand in hand, but like I said earlier - I don't think thats the RECOGNITION that FIRST had in mind.
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Unread 24-02-2002, 13:50
Martin Martin is offline
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disagree

Many of you have put me down, which is your right.
But FIRST is supposedley about the learning experience.
AND you don't learn much when engeneers do your planning and a shop does your machining...what does that teach ???
Working together and helping eachother out is how our robot came to be, and that is the best way.

Oh and please stop using things like "since you are a rookie team"
That only means we don't have FIRST experience, it does not mean we are stupid.

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Unread 24-02-2002, 14:05
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Re: disagree

Quote:
Originally posted by Martin
Many of you have put me down, which is your right.
But FIRST is supposedley about the learning experience.
AND you don't learn much when engeneers do your planning and a shop does your machining...what does that teach ???
Working together and helping eachother out is how our robot came to be, and that is the best way.

Oh and please stop using things like "since you are a rookie team"
That only means we don't have FIRST experience, it does not mean we are stupid.

Martin
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Straight from www.usfirst.org "FIRST Has an Imperative, Singular Focus: to excite more young people about the accessibility, fun, and importance of science and engineering."
Sorry, but I don't see learning there, but excitment is what FIRST is looking for. They intend (I think) to get a wider varity of students interested in enginnering, and encourage them to pursure that field of study in college.

"The FIRST Robotics Competition is not just about the design and building of sophisticated robots. These students also develop maturity, professionalism, teamwork and mentoring skills that enrich their lives." ~ Dean Kamen
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Last edited by Wetzel : 24-02-2002 at 14:09.
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Unread 24-02-2002, 14:14
meaubry meaubry is offline
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Martin,
Being a rookie doesn't mean that you are stupid, never meant it that way. Many teams start out on this adventure thinking that FIRST is about learning and teaching - sorry, again IT IS NOT. As Wetzel pointed out. That may very well be a by-product of the experience though, and that is a very good thing. That's all I got to say - Good Luck and Have Fun at the events this year.
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Unread 24-02-2002, 14:21
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im my eyes

The way I see it;
How can i be excited aobut some stupid hunk of metal i had no part in ? what will make me think about getting into engeneering or techincal sciences ?? call me stupid, call me rookie, say all you want...but there is no way in the world, someone will get INSPIRED by a product made by engeneers and mechanical shops.
All im saying is that some teams should let students take a greater part in this event, perhaps sacrificing some robot skill, but LEARNING AND SOLVING PROBLEMS WHICH IN TURN LEADS TO WHAT FIRST IS ABOUT, BEING INSPIRED !!!

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Unread 24-02-2002, 14:54
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ok so fine, because the words learning and teaching arent in the letters of FIRST, that means that its not supposed to be involved in the first experience...thats a boatload of xxxx. If watching people machine is all u think is involved in inspiration, then go home and watch the learning channel or something. but i'd have to agree with martin, "LEARNING AND SOLVING PROBLEMS WHICH IN TURN LEADS TO WHAT FIRST IS ABOUT, BEING INSPIRED." Also, having the students build and learn about robotics without the engineers is just better for the students overall, so fine it isnt required in FIRST that the students build the robots, but think about it, make it the best for the students (what this competition is focused on) and have and/or make the students build and design the robot. Take the FIRST experience at your school to another level, even if that means sacrificing some fuctionality in the robot, it will just be better for the students.

Also i'd have to agree with l1jmx, "And anyone that tries to respond to the issue by saying 'this competition is about inspiration and not about winning' is missing the point completely..." What this issue is about is the idea of this being a competition, if this was not a competition, all would be well, but because we're bringing up the word 'fair' and 'competition', having robots built by only engineers and robots built only by students competing against eachother just doesn't make sense. Yes, yes, i know that Kamen doesn't want the whole winning vs. losing thing to be there, its there anyway because of the fact that its a competition. And it just isnt fair having kids who learn about robotics during the FIRST competition competing against people who can build a robot with their eyes closed. I dunno, maybe it's just me.

So maybe instead of us discussing what FIRST is, maybe we should be discussing what FIRST SHOULD be. Now we all know that there are 100% student teams and that students can do it, so lets all bring it to the next level maybe and make this competition a student only competition. Then students would be getting inspired and learning at the same time (oh my gosh! thats impossible!), and they can be making something that they can call their own, something the students can be proud of etc. this list could go on forever.

So ya, maybe im missing the point myself, but thats what im thinking.
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Unread 24-02-2002, 14:57
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I'm impressed and inspired by Aibo, or whatever Honda calls their walking robot. You'll have to trust me on this next point for a coupple of weeks, and then give your opinion. When I see what other teams have done that is really cool, I want to take thoses ideas and used them, or mix and match, or even take it and improve onit. Its like reading the Whats New section of PopSci, its just cool stuff. This year I have a digi camera and plan on taking a LOT of pictures of parts of robots. Such as some CVTY (continualsy variable transmissions) I have been hearing about. Some diffrent drive systems (a la 401). Some of the things I can never hope to make on in our own shop, but hey, it dosn't make it any less cool.
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Last edited by Wetzel : 24-02-2002 at 15:08.
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Unread 24-02-2002, 17:38
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Big disconnect between posters

There is a huge disconnect between the various posters here. Some people are discussing the point & goal of FIRST and others are offering their opinions masked as point & goal of FIRST.

Not much gets me more upset than people who state a point as fact and do not back it up with any sources. If anyone states a goal of FIRST, back it up with a quote from a FIRST publication or a quote from Dean. If the source is missing, the statement can be taken as no more than a single individual's opinion. If someone wishes to offer changes for FIRST, clearly state it.

The best source I found for the goal of FIRST is http://www.usfirst.org/about/FIRSTBriefing.pdf.

Some food for thought: "The goal isn't simply to build a robot; the robot is a vehicle for learning much more. The real goal is building a collaborative team, a supportive community, and a solid strategy for problem solving during the competition." "The process inspires students students to learn more about science, math and technology and to develop an enthusiasm for further studies in engineering, the sciences, and design."

I think all rookies should read up on the goals of FIRST so they don't make assumptions, as I've seen many in this thread do.

If I have time I'll post my opinions later.

Mike
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Unread 24-02-2002, 19:15
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Angry :\

FIRST:

"FIRST Robotics Competition challenges teams of students and their mentors to solve a common problem" (www.usfirst.org)

I must hear the explanation to this, 'challenges teams of students' wow its a great challenge for students to have engeneers plan and a shop build a robot. From what I see, alot of teams don't have too much of a student imput in them.
And rookie or not, students are the base for this cometition.

"concepts of science, math, engineering, and invention are exciting and interesting" (www.usfirst.org)

I cannot understand how one can be inspired without any hands on activity. If people don't try things themselves, and are just told...they will not be inspired, instead they will not enjoy the experience, they will feel like the back up goaltender in a hockey win or an outsider who dosen't get the chance to do anything.

Im not quite sure weather any of this makes sense, but an awful lot of you seem to be backing up the way FIRST is now, which is fine, but in my opinion students should be more involved then they are, because after all this whole event is based on the students.
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Unread 24-02-2002, 23:32
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Thumbs down

Simply put, if you think that students on teams with higher budgets and/or strong engineers do not get as inspired or learn as much as students without such resources, you are wrong. That's all I have to say.

~Tom Fairchild~
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Unread 25-02-2002, 01:21
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Hang on a sec

Quote:
Originally posted by Martin
FIRST:
From what I see, alot of teams don't have too much of a student imput in them.
Martin,

Firstly, your passion is admirable and your opinion is welcome.

But.. you gotta understand that every single team in FIRST is different. There are teams where students don't hardly touch the robot, and there are teams where adults don't touch the robot. Both are not illegal.

However, both are not the best situation, in my opinion. Ideally, the best situation is where students are empowered to do as much as they can do while still being inspired by their mentors. This situation happens frequently on many, many teams nationwide.

You say that alot of teams don't have much student input...

If what you have been seeing are teams at competitions with only the engineers doing any of the work... then I agree with you, partly. Students should be doing the work, but right along the side of a mentor (if the student needs the help). If you say that students don't have much input by simply looking at robot pictures (which is about all we all can do up to this point), then you are very wrong. Many teams who have high levels of student involvement can make a robot look very professionally built. Some teams work very hard at making a machine which looks like a pro built it. You will be suprised.

The team I'm on has been doing this FIRST thing for 11 years. For the first 2-3 years, the robot was built entirely by adults. Over the years, this has turned a 180. Our robot is built by students and adults (engineers, parents, teachers) who work side by side. Some years, our team's robot has higher levels of student involvement in the design and fabrication of parts and subassemblies, depending on the skill level and experience of the students.

My advice to you at this time would be this: Don't assume that a robot wasn't built by students. Also, don't dig yourself a hole by bashing a team which has different theories of how their team works... you may want them as an alliance partner.

Sincerely,
Andy B.
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Unread 25-02-2002, 01:53
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I admittedly have not read all 50+ posts in this thread.. but I've read enough to hear the points, and I agree with Andy, and whomever elses' points he may have backed up...

No offense to anyone, but I remember a day when I was in high school (i've been in this for 7 years now), and everyone used to 'complain' about Delphi, our great hosts of this board. They used to say how Delphi 'sent their robot out to be made' , 'the kids don't do anything!', etc etc.. every team that lost to Delphi especially had something to say about WHO built their robot.

For a while I believed them.. and I thought "Who would want to be on a team like that?!"

And then I looked at their team.. I looked what Delphi did for their school... for all those kids...

<b>if that isn't inspiration, I don't know what is.</b>

And the truth is, not everything you hear is the truth.. and not the way everyone does something may be the way you would like to have it done, but that doesn't mean goals aren't being accomplished. Delphi is an amazing team of which the kids play a major part.

Basically, I once thought to that the only way to do it was with the kids doing as much work as possible, and I thought I had it made when I was in high school, I thought my team had all the answers about how it was done.. and then I moved to another team as mentor and saw that the same policy couldn't be applied, but the way my new team was was no less right than my original.. now I'm on yet another team as a mentor.. with still another style, and it is still just as right as any other way.

Students are being INSPIRED to LEARN more... and if you are on a team in which students do tons of building, and that is inspiring you to learn.. great! if someone else is on a team where the students do less building and more homework.. and FIRST is inspiring them to learn... great!

If those teams didn't get the message across, they wouldn't exist because students wouldn't be on them!! they are getting something from those teams.. something no one has the right to take away or lessen the value of...

I believe Dean or Woodie even said it at kickoff this year... it doesn't matter how you do it.. as long as it is getting done.. students around the world, on all different style teams are being inspired. We are all doing a great job, no matter how it is we do it!

Great job- and good luck to EVERYONE!
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Unread 25-02-2002, 05:28
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Wink why think that way when you can learn from them?

FIRST have many many meanings to people. Some think it means staying up all night to finish the robot... some believe it’s giving lectures about motors and gear ratio... Others might consider it a great opportunity to get their hands greasy, while yet another group of people use FIRST to get kids interested in college... FIRST have many many meanings to people...

That is why FIRST is so popular, because it allow lots and lots of people across the country to participate in the same competition, yet they don't have to do the same thing as each other, say... SAT's for example.

And different places have different people, which is why there are so many different things teams do. Some just want to build a robot; others might start a class like a normal high school course. Some want to help spread the words around, while others just want to experience the competition to meet other people. And that’s ok. People should do whatever they are interested and believe in. This is what make the competition so special, teams participate in the same competition, yet each and everyone of them are so different in their own way.

“What do you think FIRST is really about?” someone asked… To that question, I can only answer: It’s really about a combination of lots things... You can get a feeling of it by mixing tons of fun, the satisfactory of fully understand how motors work, and the excitement when talking to a random person from across the country in a cool discussion… but that’s as close as I can get with limited English capability.

Talking to people... That's a really big part of my FIRST experience. Getting to met people I never would’ve met by was really important. Realizing I don’t know a lot was really important. Learning to learn from others was really important. Learning to have a good attitude about things is really important. Learning to have fun and share with other people is really important.

And there are more detailed stuff, like using a hand drill... or working really hard toward an impossible deadline... Sometimes it's reading engineers’ posts or flipping through text to learn about drive train, other times it's going around looking at robots and meeting people… but there are only so much I can tell you before you experience them yourself.

You see, there is no real answer anyone can tell you, because you have got to look for them yourself. We show you the door; you walk through it and see what kind of world it is. Quoting the policy of FIRST can’t show you what it really looks like; neither can this forum fully describe the whole experience.


Someone said it is unfair that teams have engineers and lots of resources to build the robot for them. Well, why such an attitude and angle? When I look at those super cool looking robots, I knew there is no way I can build a robot as cool as theirs, but nothing is stopping me from trying. Here is what I think: For every bit of knowledge those engineers know more than I do, I know I can learn it by asking more questions… For every cool parts they machined for their robot, I know I can reverse engineer that technology and adapt to my robot, or attack the problem at a different angle and build a device within my own resources, and still be as effective in the game… For ever dollar those teams have more, I know I can try harder to get companies and people interested to help support us… So, I don’t really see this as unfairness, but rather, a higher bar out there for me to reach. There is nothing stopping me, and there is nothing stopping you to improve yourself in every ways those teams are superior in. And get this: with that kind of believe, you already have a spirit as much as theirs, maybe even more.

I know teams without engineers and resources who are just as competitive. I know engineers teams with students as brilliant and inspired as any other teams. Why not learn from both of them? Why spend the time staring at robots and say “that’s not right of them”, instead of working hard to show them that you too can be as competitive? This is why FIRST is a competition. You challenge yourself with goals and compete against others, so you can get better and better. The only thing this competition isn’t about is beating and defeating other teams.


Those “engineers’ teams” are inspirations to students and other teams around them. By raising the bar higher and higher, they challenges teams around them to be more and more competitive and build a robot better and better. Mean while, these teams are the ones walk the difficult road ahead of us, do testing on different new ideas and technology… They are the ones who can teach us how things really work, and how to develop new technologies on your robot. Look around you. In case you haven’t noticed. They are the ones teaching others about motors and programming, and show blue prints of gear shifter and explaining the theory of Continuous Variable Transmission…

FIRST wouldn’t be the same without those teams, that’s a sure thing I can tell you. They are the ones who spend time organizing local competitions, and go to team forums to help FIRST improve the competition. Someone told me, “Their robot is built by engineers, so I am not going to respect them.” Well, in my opinion, as long as they are in the competition, they will continue to help the competition and FIRST grow, and continue to be teachers for us all… I have great respects for them because of that.


Sure, their robot have higher chances of winning awards… But without them, other teams would never push themselves as far AND as hard as they have today. As long as these robots are as cool as they look, teams around them will try to better themselves and catch up (or at least I hope so).

I used to think winning is really important. After a while, I looked back at the times I work so hard to win, and saw how much I gained, even though none of them are awards. Now, I am in for the competition, and the challenges, and all those other good stuff that come along… As for awards... it’s nice to show off with one of them, but I have just as much fun cheering at other teams for winning awards they well deserve, and I can’t stress enough how true that is to many others. Why emphasis so much about awards and titles while you can gain so much more by doing other things at the competition?

People are entitled to their own opinion, so I am going to leave it up to you to decide how you like to think of those teams. If you don’t respect them for their robots and knowledge/experience, at least acknowledge things that they did to the FIRST community…

Either way, I wish you all a fun time at competition, and enjoy as much as possible. Why worry and stress yourself while you can have a great time after all the hard work you did on the robot? Enjoy yourself, and keep an open mind.
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Unread 25-02-2002, 05:50
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Ken can you be a little more specific...

J/K plz don't!

For all of you out there: Why you got to hate?! This thread is CLOSED from now on because it is pointless to argue. You can't tell what kind of situation other people are in. I can understand the point of view of "both sides". Stop arguing!

Sit back relax, look at your robot (or pictures of it), think great things coming up like the Regional.

This is life and YOU can only change it so much or so little its up to YOU to deside how much!
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Unread 25-02-2002, 12:43
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fair

hi I was a member of team 60 and we allmost folded
with the same line of thought.WE now are a strong team.You need to look to what resources you can develope.Get local machine shops on your side show this years bot and get them thinking.If you have a local big company show, we got a local power plant
to help with $ and got more from ford,Oh yes our first bot was plywood.Good luck ask the veterns
on advice.For example many ford teams sell coffee
before school,We have put on dinners beforeSchool
plays got local restrants donated food.but over
all enjoy.Chris
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