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  #61   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 16-02-2004, 22:07
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Re: Robot Collaboration

Right now there are lots of questions about the legality of this collaboration, especially in terms of the cost accounting. A question for teams 60 & 254; Did any representative from either of your teams ask FIRST about whether your partnership was allowed? I'm sure you guys realized that this was a gray area, so I am assuming you took care of this.

I'm curious as to what FIRST must have said.

Every season needs a couple of controversies, I guess this is the first one.
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Unread 16-02-2004, 22:08
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Re: Robot Collaboration

Quote:
Originally Posted by kat
both teams worked together to design the bot, both teams shared the work load
thats not what members from both teams are saying on page one of this thread - the 2nd post on the 1st page says each team built half the bot.

The only way I can see to get out of this would be for the two teams to combine as one. If you are going to separate regionals that are not on the same weekend, you could both be team 60

and if you make it to the championship, you would have to be one team or the other, but not both.

And only play with one of the two teams robots.
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Unread 16-02-2004, 22:14
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Re: Robot Collaboration

There a few issues that are being addressed here that I think some people are taking in the wrong direction.

Sharing the build load: Both teams are still going to spend all six weeks building, it's not like they finished early. They spent just as much time building as everyone else.

What if they both win both of their regionals: Well they probably would have done it anyway, not like it hasn't happened before.

This is not something that we can all just dismiss as wrong because we didn't think of it. I think everyone needs to kick-back relax and really think before you bad mouth these teams. Put yourself in their position. What if another team apporoached you to do this, what would you say?

Before you can say that they didn't work as hard or they cheated, I say try it, walk a mile in their shoes. Maybe you'll change your mind. I know I'm looking forward to trying this next year.
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Unread 16-02-2004, 22:20
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Re: Robot Collaboration

Quote:
What if another team apporoached you to do this, what would you say?
No. Due to the intent of the rules of the game as I posted above.

and besides, building the whole machine with your own team is half the fun.
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Unread 16-02-2004, 22:23
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Re: pic: Team 254 robot....almost there!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Johnson
The difference is that the rules don't specifically call out requirement for accounting for engineering or design done by non-team members while they DO specifically require that non-team labor in making parts be counted against the $3500 limit.

The way I read the rules, there is no way that $3500 limit does not apply. BUT... ...is this the spirit of the rule? I don't think the rules were intended to prevent this type of labor sharing among teams.

Joe J.
Just as a reference, I found this part in the rule book:

Under section 5.3.2.2

The cost of raw material obtained by a team + the cost of non-team labor expended to have the material processed further. Team member processing labor is not included. Example: A team purchases steel bar stock for $10.00 and has it machined by a local machine shop that donates its 2 hours of expended labor. The team must include the estimated normal cost of the labor as if it were paid to the machine shop, and add it to the $10.00. Exception Examples: If the team members themselves did the actual machining, there would be no associated labor cost. If the machine shop
were part of the team, its labor cost would not apply.


Under this rule, I would say that any parts made by team 60 on the 254 robot should not count as "if the team members themselves did the actual machining", unless they are now considered one team.
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  #66   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 16-02-2004, 22:25
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Re: Robot Collaboration

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Johnson
Because of AUTONOMOUS silly!

Autonomy is forcing every team I know that is serious about trying to maximize there chances of doing well in the robot competition to build 2 robots -- one to ship and one to program autonomous mode with while you wait to compete at the regionals and championships. This is a serious problem for FIRST in the long run (more serious than the topic of this thread, imho), but it is off topic for this already overheated thread.

So, they had to build 4 of each so that both Team 60 and Team 254 can have an extra autonomy robot (for who among us reading this deeply into this thread can seriously doubt that both teams are serious about maximizing their chances of placing well in the robot competition -- whether they "put their ego's aside" or not... -- sorry Glenn, it was too easy).

Joe J.
I really have to disagree with the bolded segment- we are serious about doing well in this competition, but there is no way we could build 2 robots. First of all, we would not be able to afford two of every part, considering we are using almost every motor. Buying an additional OI, a bunch of spikes and victors, and all the other parts for our robot is just simply not possible. But hey, we still showed up all day on friday, saturday, sunday, and monday, 50+ hours in total over the weekend.

Keep in mind we are a veteran team with access to a full machine shop (tech center alliance), chances are if we can't make a second robot then the majority of other teams can't as well..


I can tell you we would LOVE to have a second daisy to practice autonomous with. The fact is, we can't do that. Last year we seeded 4th in Galileo and won it all even after only having one robot, thanks to our programmer spending hours on perfecting his gyro. I applaud all of the teams that can achieve this, but we're thrilled to just finish our one robot.
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Unread 16-02-2004, 22:27
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Re: Robot Collaboration

I think one of the most important things to remember in this thread is that these teams did not collaborate to gyp everyone else out of a competition, they didn't conspire against teams, etc. A lot of the negative comments seem to think this is so.

The best way to describe this is change. Some people like change, they think it's a great idea, and they can't wait to integrate it into their lives. But there's always someone who doesn't like the idea, no matter what way it affects them.

Of course we all have differing ideas about this: 'These two teams are cheating!' 'They're undermining the program!' and 'What a great idea!' 'I hope we see more of this in FIRST!' But it comes down to inspiring students, recognizing that we NEED to keep science, engineering, and technology readily available to students, and knowing that all of us - engineer, parents, peer, or otherwise - can make a difference.

I'm not going to take a side, because like I'm sure most people see, there are good and bad aspects to this. But these teams are going into uncharted territory and trying to do something for the betterment of FIRST teams, and that alone should be recognized and applauded.
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Last edited by Amanda Morrison : 16-02-2004 at 22:35.
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Unread 16-02-2004, 22:32
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Re: Robot Collaboration

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric Bareiss
Sharing the build load: Both teams are still going to spend all six weeks building, it's not like they finished early. They spent just as much time building as everyone else.
Before you can say that they didn't work as hard or they cheated, I say try it, walk a mile in their shoes. Maybe you'll change your mind. I know I'm looking forward to trying this next year.
I have thought about this topic all day and gone back and forth on it. But in the end, my gut tells me that collaboration to this extent is bad.

This first statement is the one thing that I dislike about this collaboration. I think that strategy discussion, and sharing of discussion between teams is a great thing, especially between a veteran and a younger team. But the fact is, that these two teams each had about 4 weeks to design and build 1/2 of a robot. If you had 4 weeks to build just a drivetrain, or just an arm, and could focus all of your resources on that, imagine what many teams could accomplish. That would be a tremendous advantage. Collaboration is good, and does build communication skills, and an appreciation for a corporate atmosphere, but to this extent, I think it is against what we are trying to do.
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Unread 16-02-2004, 22:35
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Re: Robot Collaboration

I really dont know what all this hype is all about. What is FIRST? FIRST is: For Inspiration and Recognition of Science and Technology. The way I'm INSPIRED may not be the way you are INSPIRED. Does that mean that if a team decides to build their robot in a different way than you build yours make it wrong? No way! I saw a post above that said that it isnt nearly as fun for the teams when they build this way. How do you know that? Your team hasnt tried building your robot like this so you dont know. I keep reading this over and over and all the other topics in the hundreds of other threads saying how "if you dont make your robot like ours, then you are wrong". Everyone is INSPIRED differently. At one time I had the same argumements as a bunch of you folk, but I have since changed my mind to not worry about how other teams decide to run thier teams and build their robots. Different is not wrong, different is.... different.

I know i keep saying it but FIRST is all about INSPIRATION.




After I posted this, I saw what Amanda Morrison posted. I agree with you Amanda all the way.
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Unread 16-02-2004, 22:35
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Re: Robot Collaboration

I'm going to refrain from posting my opinion until I think about this more.
I urge others to do the same.

As to the legality of this:
We'll have to wait and see. I'm sure, given the discussion, some "official" ruling will be made. Although... I ask: would anyone WANT to deny these 2 beloved and respected teams entry into this game?

My interpretation(s):
-Yes there is enough grey area that 254 and 60 should OF COURSE be allowed to compete this year, as shown.
-Yes Laron can be 254's sponsor, even if they have never been listed thus far. Therefore: All parts made by 60 are allowable on 254's robot.
-Heck... Team 60 can be sponsored by "Team 254" and Team 254 can be sponsored by "Team 60"...

This may change for 2005, it may not.
There is enough grey here that this seems legal for 2004.


Obviously both teams benefitted from this.
The students on these teams benefitted from this.
The FIRST community will likely benefit from this... it will definitely be the start of something.

These are just my interpretations on the "legality" of this.
Nothing official here.
Keep that in mind.

Opinions to come later,
JVN
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Last edited by JVN : 16-02-2004 at 22:42.
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Unread 16-02-2004, 22:45
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Re: Robot Collaboration

This one should be easy to sort out. This predicament has been foreshadowed cryptically by FIRST in Team Update #10 as follows:

“FIRST staff and volunteers will vigorously support and enforce the 2004 rules as written. Team’s excellent and creative work that may not align / be in agreement with the rules will be acknowledged as excellent work but will be disallowed.” This statement is no longer cryptic. It describes the collusion that has occurred between these two teams. I hope this is nipped quickly to stop the impending slide into mega-alliances that will eliminate the growth of FIRST.

The collaboration is indeed excellent and creative. But currently it is NOT in agreement with the rules. The robot was not designed and built by members of your team. Each team contracted a significant portion of robot manufacturing to non-team members (just because it was another FIRST Team doesn't make it okay). The manufacturing costs associated with this excellent and creative work MUST be valued per the rules. Or, I suppose that each team could REMANUFACTURE the offending subsystem with their team members prior to the deadline…..Otherwise, I don’t see how either team should be allowed to complete - unless it is under a single team number!

There are also some other basic flaws with the approach that are not aligned / in agreement with FIRST philosophy, as I see them:

1. It dilutes student involvement and creativity in the design and build concept of the ENTIRE robot.
2. It inspires students to collude in completing high school and college assignments. Doing somebody else’s work crosses the line. It isn’t the same as tutoring or coaching.
3. If this becomes the norm, it will gradually discourage rookie teams from forming unless they can find a mega-alliance to partner with. Established teams will start to drop out as the stakes increase each year and it stops being fun because they can’t compete on the same level.

Arguments that this is a unique strategy that benefits the students are way off base. Claiming this teaches students to “think outside the box” is a feeble attempt at rationalization. The FIRST competition gives you many opportunities to “think outside the box” without the need to “think outside the team”. You are robbing the students of some valuable learning experiences within your own teams. Who actually spent “hours on the phone and numerous emails between the teams”? Was it the students, or was it the engineers?
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Unread 16-02-2004, 22:53
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Re: Robot Collaboration

Quote:
Originally Posted by JVN
-Heck... Team 60 can be sponsored by "Team 254" and Team 254 can be sponsored by "Team 60"...
I never thought about that from this angle. Thanks John.

And on that note, I think we can all take a break on this topic and absorb the material in this thread. I think many good points have been made. This is a rather constructive discussion, if a little unfocused from time to time, but I think that's ok.

I tried using the thread view only to look at this thread, but found it is impossible to seperate sub topic from sub topics. So, my recommendation is everyone please remember to quote the post you are replying to so we can maintain the train of thoughts. Try not to reply to all sub topics in one post, and instead reply to individual posts.

Thanks.
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Unread 16-02-2004, 22:54
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Re: Robot Collaboration

this is the section of the rulebook that is going to be the problem for these two teams, and I dont see anything grey about it:

Quote:
5.2.5 Design and Build Rules
<R09> Teams must fabricate and/or assemble all custom parts and assembled mechanisms on the robot by the
2004 team after the start of the Kick-off. Mechanisms from previous year’s robots may not be used,
however, individual off-the-shelf components from previous year’s robots may be re-used to save the cost
of re-purchase of these parts IF they meet ALL of the 2004 Additional Parts and Materials Rules.
I hope these two teams work out some sort of agreement with FIRST, so they can compete - but I also home FIRST makes it clear that collaboration on this level is not in the spirit of FIRST.
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Unread 16-02-2004, 23:03
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Re: Robot Collaboration

correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't seem to remember anything in the rules that says it is not possible for two different teams to be made up of the same people. if a team wants to pay the registration fee twice and recieve two kits of parts, then I think (emphasis on think) that they are, or at least should be, able to enter two robots. for all intents and purposes, 60 and 254 have aligned to form one team. since they are the same team, all the sponsors of one count as all the sponsors of the other. the only thing different about this new team is that they have decided to pay double the registration fee in order to enter two robots instead of one.

The argument that the alignment allows the concentration of too many resources is not quite logical. after a certain point, more money does not get you anything. for example, if a team has a $30k a year budget, there is pretty much nothing that is out of their price range. if they merged with a really big team, and as a result of that now have $500k to work with, they haven't really gained anything robot wise - they can still only put $3500 into the robot. all that extra money and resources goes into travel and food and marching bands and stuff like that.

Everyone is saying that these two teams have cut corners and decreased their workloads by corroborating. has anyone taken into account the sheer size of the problems involved in coordinating two groups of people in the building of a single integrated robot? Our team's subgroups have enough of a hard time coordinating amongst themselves to get things to fit right, i can't imagine how difficult it would be to coordinate with a team in another state!

As a last request, i would ask that we PLEASE refrain from bringing up the subject of student built vs. engineer built. there is no evidence either way for that argument, and so it is foolish to make that accusation. that topic has been beaten into the ground many many many times, and is not what is being discussed here.
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Unread 16-02-2004, 23:11
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Re: Robot Collaboration

Quote:
Originally Posted by rourke
Arguments that this is a unique strategy that benefits the students are way off base. Claiming this teaches students to ?think outside the box? is a feeble attempt at rationalization. The FIRST competition gives you many opportunities to ?think outside the box? without the need to ?think outside the team?. You are robbing the students of some valuable learning experiences within your own teams. Who actually spent ?hours on the phone and numerous emails between the teams?? Was it the students, or was it the engineers?
If you have never tried a similiar approach, how do you know if it doesn't work? You may have speculations, but on what grounds are you able to tell another team how they should and should not be run? There is no right way to run a team and even if it didn't work out well, at least they tried something new.
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