Go to Post Insanity is overrated. - MissInformation [more]
Home
Go Back   Chief Delphi > FIRST > General Forum
CD-Media   CD-Spy  
portal register members calendar search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read FAQ rules

 
Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Rating: Thread Rating: 6 votes, 3.67 average. Display Modes
  #1   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 17-02-2004, 20:15
Shawn60 Shawn60 is offline
Registered User
#0060 (Bionic Bulldogs)
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Kingman, Az
Posts: 86
Shawn60 will become famous soon enough
Question Re: Robot Collaboration

I found this also. What does it really mean??? I'll let the debate continue.
I personlly think this is a very important discussion to have. The outcome will forever change the face of FIRST (IMHO).


5.3.2.2 Status: Answered Date Answered: 1/15/2004
Q: What constitutes a "Team Member"? Your example in the 4th bullet states"...If the machine shop were part of the team, its labor cost would not apply."

A: A team member is one that is afforded all of the rights and priveleges of all team members, including being listed in your literature and on your tee shirts (we encourage teams with large memberships).


Shawn
Teacher
Team 60
__________________
There are no easy answers... Only complicated never ending questions.
  #2   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 17-02-2004, 20:41
Jeff Waegelin's Avatar
Jeff Waegelin Jeff Waegelin is offline
El Jefe de 148
AKA: Midwest Refugee
FRC #0148 (Robowranglers)
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Rookie Year: 2001
Location: Greenville, TX
Posts: 3,132
Jeff Waegelin has a reputation beyond reputeJeff Waegelin has a reputation beyond reputeJeff Waegelin has a reputation beyond reputeJeff Waegelin has a reputation beyond reputeJeff Waegelin has a reputation beyond reputeJeff Waegelin has a reputation beyond reputeJeff Waegelin has a reputation beyond reputeJeff Waegelin has a reputation beyond reputeJeff Waegelin has a reputation beyond reputeJeff Waegelin has a reputation beyond reputeJeff Waegelin has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Robot Collaboration

Just in case you haven't seen it stickied to the top, you might all want to read this. I was a little dismayed at the direction this thread was going a few pages back. Fortunately, things seem to be on the upswing again, and for that I thank the people who have been reasonable and rational, no matter which position they take in this discussion. To those that have not, just know that we're watching. It would be a shame to end a discussion of such gravity simply because a few people can't refrain from speaking without thinking first.
__________________
Jeff Waegelin
Mechanical Engineer, Innovation First Labs
Lead Engineer, Team 148 - The Robowranglers
  #3   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 17-02-2004, 20:43
Unsung FIRST Hero
JVN JVN is offline
@JohnVNeun
AKA: John Vielkind-Neun
FRC #0148 (Robowranglers)
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: May 2001
Rookie Year: 2000
Location: Greenville, Tx
Posts: 3,159
JVN has a reputation beyond reputeJVN has a reputation beyond reputeJVN has a reputation beyond reputeJVN has a reputation beyond reputeJVN has a reputation beyond reputeJVN has a reputation beyond reputeJVN has a reputation beyond reputeJVN has a reputation beyond reputeJVN has a reputation beyond reputeJVN has a reputation beyond reputeJVN has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Robot Collaboration

Okay.

Time to step back, and take a break.

This thread was originally very constructive, but it is rapidly turning into a mob with pitchforks.

Brandon -- I am locking this thread for a few hours. To be reopened at your discretion.

Everyone needs to cool down, on both sides.

I won't stand by and see these 2 teams who are "pillars of FIRST" that I happen to know and greatly respect be torn apart... regardless of whether their actions are right or wrong (I'm not passing judgement), we need to keep in mind that these teams are definitely the "right stuff" and have had great positive impacts on FIRST itself, and certainly on thier students.

We may decide their actions are wrong. We may hear from FIRST that this is illegal. We may condemn them for their actions... but... we won't attack these two teams, and their members.

Chew on that for a while... then try for some more rational discussion.

JVN
Proud friend of the cheesypoofs
__________________
In the interest of full disclosure: I work for VEX Robotics a subsidiary of Innovation First International (IFI) Crown Supplier & Proud Supporter of FIRST
  #4   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 17-02-2004, 20:50
Brandon Martus's Avatar Unsung FIRST Hero
Brandon Martus Brandon Martus is offline
busy.
AKA: B. Slash Kamen
no team
 
Join Date: May 2001
Rookie Year: 1998
Location: Nevada, TX USA
Posts: 5,271
Brandon Martus has a reputation beyond reputeBrandon Martus has a reputation beyond reputeBrandon Martus has a reputation beyond reputeBrandon Martus has a reputation beyond reputeBrandon Martus has a reputation beyond reputeBrandon Martus has a reputation beyond reputeBrandon Martus has a reputation beyond reputeBrandon Martus has a reputation beyond reputeBrandon Martus has a reputation beyond reputeBrandon Martus has a reputation beyond reputeBrandon Martus has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via ICQ to Brandon Martus Send a message via AIM to Brandon Martus Send a message via Yahoo to Brandon Martus
Re: Robot Collaboration

I'll re-open this thread later tonight.

Until then, read the thread over... this thread is huge.
Gather your thoughts. Type them out. Read them over.
Re-read the thread. Re-read your post over.
By then, the thread should be open and you can post what you have come up with.

Please don't start any other threads. This one will re-open tonight. Check back around 11pm EST.

Moderators: close them, if you see new/similar threads pop up.

Thanks.
__________________
Brandon Martus
e-mail

Last edited by Brandon Martus : 17-02-2004 at 20:55.
  #5   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 17-02-2004, 22:57
sfield sfield is offline
Registered User
#0060 (Bionic Bulldogs)
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Kingman
Posts: 6
sfield has a little shameless behaviour in the past
Re: Robot Collaboration

First off let me say I am not an active member of Team 60 still, so I don’t know every detail, nor will I pretend that I know everything about this year’s robot or team. At first glance it seems that there are a lot of angry people in the FIRST community, but then upon a second reflection I realized these people are not angry… just ignorant, ignorance is a person’s worst enemy. Those of you who are part of the large wave of antipathy in disagreement over the innovative ideas of Teams 60 and 254 need to again realize what FIRST is… a GAME. I believe you are all loosing site on what this competition is all about. Many of you incorrectly believe that FIRST is a competition where students MUST be the sole contributors to building the robots. If you are one of these people I am sorry that you haven’t yet grasped the full meaning of FIRST and let me quote the FIRST web site as I did 2 years ago when this same topic was brought up. “The FIRST Robotics Competition is an exciting, multinational competition that teams professionals and young people to solve an engineering design problem in an intense and competitive way.”

Secondly, it was very clear what Glenn posted as to what the ratio of student machined parts to professionally machined parts was…I believe 9-1. Or as he stated 90% of all the parts were fabricated by the team. Now I can tell you from past years experience that a group of students are not capable of doing every task on a piece of machinery such as a robot. They should not be expected to experiment with welding or other similar tasks. That would be careless and dangerous. So I fully believe that 10% of the work was done outside of the team, as it should have been.

Again quoting the FIRST web page, “Involved engineers experience again many of the reasons they chose engineering as a profession, and the companies they work for contribute to the community while they prepare and create their future workforce.” Now, that is what FIRST has written as to what the competition is. That being said I would like to know what engineers or any business professional work alone in their respective fields? Why then are people criticizing these two remarkable teams on cooperating? Doesn’t that qualify as preparing the future work force?

Lastly these two teams did NOT have to post anything about their robots or release pictures to anyone. I bet many of you posting negative comments have not let any information out about what your robots are like or what they do. Teams 60 and 254 have become known in the past few years for graciously posting pictures and information about their robots, and many around FIRST look forward to seeing the production pics of these robots. The simple gesture of posting these pictures on the internet shows that these two teams are ALL about cooperation and inspiring the FIRST community. I encourage all of you to not degrade these teams for their willingness to share their ideas. I know that this will not impact many of you who believe this will “reck” FIRST. I’m not sure how some of you call yourselves true FIRST participants if you honestly believe that teamwork and cooperation will ruin FIRST. This all goes back to my first point, that ignorance is one’s worst enemy. People oppose change because they are ignorant to the future. I challenge all of you to learn more about these two landmark FIRST teams before you rudely call for their demise.

My hats off to 60 and 254 for again adding new innovation to the FIRST community. And on a side note despite all this criticism I would like to say thank you to perhaps two of the most under appreciated men in FIRST, Glenn and George for everything they taught me over my duration in FIRST. These two gentlemen taught me things that I will be able to use for the rest of my life, and for that I will be forever grateful. So thank you for inspiring me to continually come up with new and innovative ideas.

Stephen Field
  #6   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 17-02-2004, 23:23
Katie Reynolds Katie Reynolds is offline
Registered User
no team (NEW Apple Corps)
Team Role: Alumni
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Rookie Year: 2001
Location: Appleton, WI, USA
Posts: 2,598
Katie Reynolds has a reputation beyond reputeKatie Reynolds has a reputation beyond reputeKatie Reynolds has a reputation beyond reputeKatie Reynolds has a reputation beyond reputeKatie Reynolds has a reputation beyond reputeKatie Reynolds has a reputation beyond reputeKatie Reynolds has a reputation beyond reputeKatie Reynolds has a reputation beyond reputeKatie Reynolds has a reputation beyond reputeKatie Reynolds has a reputation beyond reputeKatie Reynolds has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to Katie Reynolds Send a message via Yahoo to Katie Reynolds
Re: Robot Collaboration

Quote:
Originally Posted by sfield
At first glance it seems that there are a lot of angry people in the FIRST community, but then upon a second reflection I realized these people are not angry… just ignorant, ignorance is a person’s worst enemy. Those of you who are part of the large wave of antipathy in disagreement over the innovative ideas of Teams 60 and 254 need to again realize what FIRST is… a GAME
From what I've seen there are, in fact, some angry people. Just because a person is angry, does not make them ignorant and it is unfair to say such. No one has the right to tell people how they should or should not feel about something. You can disagree with them all you want, but no one has any right to tell someone not to be upset or angry about something.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sfield
Now I can tell you from past years experience that a group of students are not capable of doing every task on a piece of machinery such as a robot. They should not be expected to experiment with welding or other similar tasks. That would be careless and dangerous. So I fully believe that 10% of the work was done outside of the team, as it should have been.
I know quite a few groups of students that are fully capable of "doing every task" on a robot and then some. It is not a requirement that a robot be welded, or that a student should be asked to weld anything. This whole thread is about experimenting with something new and different, correct?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sfield
I’m not sure how some of you call yourselves true FIRST participants if you honestly believe that teamwork and cooperation will ruin FIRST. This all goes back to my first point, that ignorance is one’s worst enemy. People oppose change because they are ignorant to the future. I challenge all of you to learn more about these two landmark FIRST teams before you rudely call for their demise.
I don't think anyone has said that teamwork and cooperation will ruin FIRST. I think what people have been saying is, with this advanced level of cooperation, what stops the 1,000 teams in FIRST from building 1,000 identical robots? Why not just ship a set of instructions with the kit of parts each year? I have not seen anyone call for the demise of either of these teams. Some people are simply not happy with what they are doing.

If someone is unhappy, they're unhappy. What's done is done, and the situation isn't going to change. *shrug* What can you do?

"Any change, even a change for the better, is always accompanied by drawbacks and discomforts." - Arnold Bennett

Last edited by Katie Reynolds : 17-02-2004 at 23:31.
  #7   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 17-02-2004, 23:29
Greg Perkins's Avatar
Greg Perkins Greg Perkins is offline
7 years, allready!!???!?!?!
AKA: Mongo
no team
Team Role: Alumni
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Rookie Year: 2000
Location: Nashua, NH
Posts: 1,203
Greg Perkins has a reputation beyond reputeGreg Perkins has a reputation beyond reputeGreg Perkins has a reputation beyond reputeGreg Perkins has a reputation beyond reputeGreg Perkins has a reputation beyond reputeGreg Perkins has a reputation beyond reputeGreg Perkins has a reputation beyond reputeGreg Perkins has a reputation beyond reputeGreg Perkins has a reputation beyond reputeGreg Perkins has a reputation beyond reputeGreg Perkins has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to Greg Perkins Send a message via MSN to Greg Perkins Send a message via Yahoo to Greg Perkins
Re: Robot Collaboration

just because Kingman is sponsored by FORD, i had to post this...


Imagine, if FORD and CHEVY collaborated to produce a car...now ford and chevy would have a great product, and succeed...

but then you would have tons and tons of FORD and CHEVY fans knocking at the CEO's door in the morning to dispute the decision to join the dark and light side(sorry, im a diehard FORD fan), and we would'nt have a fun little rivalry ...


just a humorous little analogy i thought that pertains to the subject at hand
__________________
myResume -2004: PARC Referee; Beantown Staff; Battlecry Referee; Summer Frenzy Head Referee; River Rage Head Referee, 2005: Pittsburgh Regional Referee; PARC Referee


XBOX Live Gamertag = TrixAre4Kidss

Last edited by Greg Perkins : 17-02-2004 at 23:34.
  #8   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 17-02-2004, 23:59
Dan Richardson's Avatar
Dan Richardson Dan Richardson is offline
iR3 Creative
AKA: Dan Richardson
no team
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Rookie Year: 2001
Location: Ft. Lauderdale FL
Posts: 1,121
Dan Richardson has a reputation beyond reputeDan Richardson has a reputation beyond reputeDan Richardson has a reputation beyond reputeDan Richardson has a reputation beyond reputeDan Richardson has a reputation beyond reputeDan Richardson has a reputation beyond reputeDan Richardson has a reputation beyond reputeDan Richardson has a reputation beyond reputeDan Richardson has a reputation beyond reputeDan Richardson has a reputation beyond reputeDan Richardson has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Robot Collaboration

Many on this forum have expressed concern for what has taken place this robotics season. A reason for this might be that is a previously unexplored avenue. Not that it is previously un thought of, just really never been explored to this extent before. Team 60 and team 254 are to outstanding teams in the FIRST community. As a rookie team 60 was my first encounter with a superb robot. ( 2001 ) They were one of the best built robots I had seen my life ( I saw this because they knocked us out in the quarterfinals of our division at nationals ). Team 60 has been one of the few robots I’ve looked forward to seeing every year. Our team has personally become stronger because of team 60. 1) because of their brilliance in performance making us desire to compete at their level, and 2) because of their outreach efforts to aid teams with things like their Marketing and promotional package and guidelines. 254 I have become more knowledgeable of during the past year or so. Hearing and watching them succeed and propel themselves into the national spotlight of FIRST has been an exciting process. They are among one of the teams I respect most for their effort to bring awareness of FIRST, science and technology.

I believe, like many others, that we all have great respect for what 60 and 254 have done for the FIRST community. We all greatly appreciate your efforts in this strive. I personally want to thank you for this.

I believe your thoughts and intentions in your special team development, bonding, and real life experience where pure and good. Call me blindly optimistic but I also believe that no one in this discussion believes that you did not work hard, or did not put forth good effort to create a superb robot.

No one is questioning your ethics, your desire to learn, your desire to teach, your desire to help, your desire to work, or your desire to share. We all understand that you would not have been elevated to the status that both your teams are at by not working hard.

It is the opinion of many however that the path taken to the extent it was taken is a bit shocking and a bit upsetting to some. There are certain rules and provisions made by FIRST and what you have done is touched on a grey area, and what seems to me has been somewhat of an unspoken boundary, a road that has not been traveled. It is easy to see how this may effect FIRST in the long run, does this kind of partnership continue to happen, or does it not.. If it were to continue, where might it end? Again blind optimism has it that it is my belief these questions do not arise because people want you out of competition, but more in questions of fairness within guidelines of the rules.

Even in FIRST’s statement there can be great things accomplished where it is still illegal. In years of old it may have been illegal to proclaim the catholic church wrong, punishable by death, but it didn’t stop those old famous guys to say “ Hey maybe Earth goes around the sun “ or “ Maybe the earth isn’t flat but rounded. “ So what I’m saying is it might end up being an ok thing, however we still must be careful.

To those who have stated “ If this were 2 rookie teams would anyone have looked twice upon it, “ I say maybe, most likely they would have been talked to by older veteran teams but it would not have received the hipe. However with as much respect as your teams command comes great responsibility and scrutiny. You will always be in the spotlight as long as you are on top. You may not have asked to be put there, but when you do things as amazing as your teams, you automatically get put their like it or not. Its just the nature of things, with great Status comes great responsibility. When you make any stance on a grey area you’ll find those who support your stance and those who do not. Especially if some of the members feel “ shafted, “ or “ cheated. “

I still feel some questions are unanswered, but I do not feel it necessary to post them again. I also believe most all questions will be answered if and when FIRST releases a statement.

I want to close by thanking Team 60 and Team 254 for all they have done for the FIRST community, and the noticeable amount of work that they put forth this year in trying to elevate their level of competition. Tho I still might disagree with the way they went about this style of collaboration, I still do not believe that they had the wrong intentions. It is still my hope that FIRST does not all together venture down this path, but I will stand behind FIRST’s decision and adjust accordingly, even if I might disagree.

Thank you again 60 and 254 for all you’ve done and continue to do.

Dan
__________________
CO-Founder of Robot in 3 Days and the Robot in 3 Day Challenge.


  #9   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 17-02-2004, 23:08
Matt Adams's Avatar
Matt Adams Matt Adams is offline
b(o_o)d
FRC #1525 (Warbots)
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Rookie Year: 2000
Location: Arlington Hts. IL
Posts: 375
Matt Adams has a reputation beyond reputeMatt Adams has a reputation beyond reputeMatt Adams has a reputation beyond reputeMatt Adams has a reputation beyond reputeMatt Adams has a reputation beyond reputeMatt Adams has a reputation beyond reputeMatt Adams has a reputation beyond reputeMatt Adams has a reputation beyond reputeMatt Adams has a reputation beyond reputeMatt Adams has a reputation beyond reputeMatt Adams has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to Matt Adams
Post Re: Robot Collaboration

I spouted something sort of arrogant in a post a while back along the lines of, "If you do the algebra, you'll see that the total cost of the robot after billing out fabrication at a reasonable hourly rate will add up to several thousand dollars."

I guess I never really did any.

I suppose nobody else did either, or they would have called me on it.

Let's assume 30 unique parts for a major component, of varying complexity, averaging 2 hours each. Since they're making them in batches (at least groups of 4)... these hours could be minimized further. I assume that the average high school student entering a metalworkers union wouldn't be earning much past $20 an hour.

The algebra says that's only $1,200 folks. I wouldn't have gripes if they billed out high school kids at $15 an hour either.

Do we seriously not want these guys to compete with us this year?

If they can keep the total cost of the rest of their robot under $2300... it's fine by me. It's probably in their best interest to document their hours in some way so that it's clear.

But if they estimate their hours... are you seriously going to breathe down their necks?

Compassion has been lacking on my part, and I'll openly apologize if I've offended anyone. I was reminded of a quote.

"If you judge people, you have no time to love them. And if you love people, you have no desire to judge them. Besides, there may come a time when we, too, will find ourselves more in need of love than judgment." - Mother Teresa

Back to work...

Matt
__________________
Matt Adams - Engineer at Danaher Motion
Team 1525 - Warbots - Deerfield High School
Closed Thread


Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:33.

The Chief Delphi Forums are sponsored by Innovation First International, Inc.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © Chief Delphi