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  #151   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 17-02-2004, 23:23
Katie Reynolds Katie Reynolds is offline
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Re: Robot Collaboration

Quote:
Originally Posted by sfield
At first glance it seems that there are a lot of angry people in the FIRST community, but then upon a second reflection I realized these people are not angry… just ignorant, ignorance is a person’s worst enemy. Those of you who are part of the large wave of antipathy in disagreement over the innovative ideas of Teams 60 and 254 need to again realize what FIRST is… a GAME
From what I've seen there are, in fact, some angry people. Just because a person is angry, does not make them ignorant and it is unfair to say such. No one has the right to tell people how they should or should not feel about something. You can disagree with them all you want, but no one has any right to tell someone not to be upset or angry about something.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sfield
Now I can tell you from past years experience that a group of students are not capable of doing every task on a piece of machinery such as a robot. They should not be expected to experiment with welding or other similar tasks. That would be careless and dangerous. So I fully believe that 10% of the work was done outside of the team, as it should have been.
I know quite a few groups of students that are fully capable of "doing every task" on a robot and then some. It is not a requirement that a robot be welded, or that a student should be asked to weld anything. This whole thread is about experimenting with something new and different, correct?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sfield
I’m not sure how some of you call yourselves true FIRST participants if you honestly believe that teamwork and cooperation will ruin FIRST. This all goes back to my first point, that ignorance is one’s worst enemy. People oppose change because they are ignorant to the future. I challenge all of you to learn more about these two landmark FIRST teams before you rudely call for their demise.
I don't think anyone has said that teamwork and cooperation will ruin FIRST. I think what people have been saying is, with this advanced level of cooperation, what stops the 1,000 teams in FIRST from building 1,000 identical robots? Why not just ship a set of instructions with the kit of parts each year? I have not seen anyone call for the demise of either of these teams. Some people are simply not happy with what they are doing.

If someone is unhappy, they're unhappy. What's done is done, and the situation isn't going to change. *shrug* What can you do?

"Any change, even a change for the better, is always accompanied by drawbacks and discomforts." - Arnold Bennett

Last edited by Katie Reynolds : 17-02-2004 at 23:31.
  #152   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 17-02-2004, 23:29
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Re: Robot Collaboration

just because Kingman is sponsored by FORD, i had to post this...


Imagine, if FORD and CHEVY collaborated to produce a car...now ford and chevy would have a great product, and succeed...

but then you would have tons and tons of FORD and CHEVY fans knocking at the CEO's door in the morning to dispute the decision to join the dark and light side(sorry, im a diehard FORD fan), and we would'nt have a fun little rivalry ...


just a humorous little analogy i thought that pertains to the subject at hand
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Last edited by Greg Perkins : 17-02-2004 at 23:34.
  #153   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 17-02-2004, 23:59
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Re: Robot Collaboration

Many on this forum have expressed concern for what has taken place this robotics season. A reason for this might be that is a previously unexplored avenue. Not that it is previously un thought of, just really never been explored to this extent before. Team 60 and team 254 are to outstanding teams in the FIRST community. As a rookie team 60 was my first encounter with a superb robot. ( 2001 ) They were one of the best built robots I had seen my life ( I saw this because they knocked us out in the quarterfinals of our division at nationals ). Team 60 has been one of the few robots I’ve looked forward to seeing every year. Our team has personally become stronger because of team 60. 1) because of their brilliance in performance making us desire to compete at their level, and 2) because of their outreach efforts to aid teams with things like their Marketing and promotional package and guidelines. 254 I have become more knowledgeable of during the past year or so. Hearing and watching them succeed and propel themselves into the national spotlight of FIRST has been an exciting process. They are among one of the teams I respect most for their effort to bring awareness of FIRST, science and technology.

I believe, like many others, that we all have great respect for what 60 and 254 have done for the FIRST community. We all greatly appreciate your efforts in this strive. I personally want to thank you for this.

I believe your thoughts and intentions in your special team development, bonding, and real life experience where pure and good. Call me blindly optimistic but I also believe that no one in this discussion believes that you did not work hard, or did not put forth good effort to create a superb robot.

No one is questioning your ethics, your desire to learn, your desire to teach, your desire to help, your desire to work, or your desire to share. We all understand that you would not have been elevated to the status that both your teams are at by not working hard.

It is the opinion of many however that the path taken to the extent it was taken is a bit shocking and a bit upsetting to some. There are certain rules and provisions made by FIRST and what you have done is touched on a grey area, and what seems to me has been somewhat of an unspoken boundary, a road that has not been traveled. It is easy to see how this may effect FIRST in the long run, does this kind of partnership continue to happen, or does it not.. If it were to continue, where might it end? Again blind optimism has it that it is my belief these questions do not arise because people want you out of competition, but more in questions of fairness within guidelines of the rules.

Even in FIRST’s statement there can be great things accomplished where it is still illegal. In years of old it may have been illegal to proclaim the catholic church wrong, punishable by death, but it didn’t stop those old famous guys to say “ Hey maybe Earth goes around the sun “ or “ Maybe the earth isn’t flat but rounded. “ So what I’m saying is it might end up being an ok thing, however we still must be careful.

To those who have stated “ If this were 2 rookie teams would anyone have looked twice upon it, “ I say maybe, most likely they would have been talked to by older veteran teams but it would not have received the hipe. However with as much respect as your teams command comes great responsibility and scrutiny. You will always be in the spotlight as long as you are on top. You may not have asked to be put there, but when you do things as amazing as your teams, you automatically get put their like it or not. Its just the nature of things, with great Status comes great responsibility. When you make any stance on a grey area you’ll find those who support your stance and those who do not. Especially if some of the members feel “ shafted, “ or “ cheated. “

I still feel some questions are unanswered, but I do not feel it necessary to post them again. I also believe most all questions will be answered if and when FIRST releases a statement.

I want to close by thanking Team 60 and Team 254 for all they have done for the FIRST community, and the noticeable amount of work that they put forth this year in trying to elevate their level of competition. Tho I still might disagree with the way they went about this style of collaboration, I still do not believe that they had the wrong intentions. It is still my hope that FIRST does not all together venture down this path, but I will stand behind FIRST’s decision and adjust accordingly, even if I might disagree.

Thank you again 60 and 254 for all you’ve done and continue to do.

Dan
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  #154   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 18-02-2004, 03:40
SteveK254 SteveK254 is offline
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Collaboration Debate.

Team 254 wishes to thank everyone for their comments in regards to our collaboration with Team 60. Even though we made this venture with the best intensions in mind (our students), it seems that some have issue with our choices. We have open minds and have noted each and every recommendation/concern.

Our teams (60 and 254) encourage, and are interested in, all thoughts about the “concept” of collaboration, and felt it would be a great concept for FIRST teams to analyze more this season. Most have given respectful, open minded, and well thought out opinions on both sides of the discussion – some love how we are working together, some are troubled by it and fear “possible” ramifications down the road, and many are somewhere in between. We have planned all along to document our experiment, to share the positive aspects and difficult aspects with the entire FIRST community at the conclusion of the season, and look forward to continued input from our many friends in the FIRST community.

When looking at some posts of those assigned the “con” side of the proposed “debate” – we realize that many statements have been for neither discussion nor debate, rather they have been statements of assumption, attack and accusation that unfairly slander our teams. As all our actions and intentions have been within the exiting FIRST rules, it troubles us that these people have used words like “cheat”, “broken rules”, and have implied our teams have “not been straight” about our goals. This is not only hurtful to us mentors, but more importantly to our students. Statements like these show very little knowledge of our teams, are unfounded, unfair, and ungracious – and clearly show us that continuing a “debate” would mean we would either need to lower ourselves to that level or defend ourselves against baseless and incorrect claims. As we have already lost valuable time this week, and there is only one week left before the ship date, we feel it’s in the best interest of all to dedicate their time and effort to their team members and the challenges in front of them. As FIRST will have the final word on this, I don't see any advantage of participating in this debate. We look forward to FIRST's guidance and will comply with their ruling.

What makes this thread even more intriguing, is that all of it is speculation at this point, as neither of our robots have even worked or competed yet. We would hope people and teams would reserve judgment until they see what may or may not result from our collaboration. It appears that FIRST may have provided all of us with one of the best games yet, and the upcoming season should be fun and exciting for all. As usual, we look forward to seeing and working with all of you at any events we attend. Best of luck to every team in the 2004 season – we wish you all a great experience.

Last edited by SteveK254 : 18-02-2004 at 04:03. Reason: paste malfunction
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