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Unread 15-03-2004, 11:03
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Re: Future of Autonomous Mode

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Originally Posted by 10intheCrunch
I know FIRST isn't supposed to be fair, but autonomous mode as it is out of reach for many teams. Programming a real AI as well as processing realtime video and active decision making for playing a game as complicated as FIRST's would not be possible for all but a very very few teams, and I believe those teams would mostly outsource their programming.

FIRST is For Inspiration, of course, but I believe that most of the work on a robot should be by students, and that includes programming. I know that I couldn't program to the level you are talking about right now; people go to college and spend their careers developing these tools and systems. Certainly C was the right move, but this would be far too much.
Yup, this probably does need to move in stages but I think it would be nice to give the programmers a bigger role in the team. Really at this point all you need is one guy and an hour or so to write all the basic code for the bot. Any more advanced stuff will take another couple of hours. It would be nice to have a team of programmers instead working around the clock like the rest of the team, trying to figure things out.

EDIT: Perhaps we're looking at something in the long run. Maybe in 20 years, FIRST bots will be AI driven? Besides, this just adds to the coolness factor.

Last edited by FadyS. : 15-03-2004 at 11:08.
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Unread 15-03-2004, 14:53
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Re: Future of Autonomous Mode

FIRST is a competition intended to give high school students the experience of working on all stages of a real engineering project in six weeks (Design, Prototype, Build Program, Debug, etc..). FIRST does this by getting all teams to start from scratch with a new game. Although some teams have advantages like a battle-tested drive train that they rebuild every year, it still is a new game with new challenges (like steps to climb). Autonomous has new challenges as well.

FIRST is not an AI development competition like the RoboCup. They use AI with cameras to play an autonomous game of soccer. Some robots even network with teammates to organize plays, which would be cool for FIRST if IFI would provide the ability for bots to communicate with each other (perhaps that is the future, FIRST loves cooperation). However, Robocop teams same simple goal: kick the ball in the opponent's goal. The game of soccer is much simpler than any FIRST game, which are notorious for their complex scoring systems that many humans can't comprehend. Even if we were given a default camera object recognition system, very, very few teams would be able to teach it to play the game in 6 weeks. Think about all the different objects involved in this year's game (3 types of balls, 4 different goals, etc). All FIRST robots look different, so the only way to tell a friend robot from a foe is those little blinking lights.

This would create a larger gap between the haves and have-nots when it comes to Autonomous. Currently the pinnacle of autonomous is a positional coordinate system (like the ones Wildstang and a few others have). The PIC is powerful enough to allow everyone to do this without external processors. As teams get used the new processor, gyros and encoders in the next few years, many more teams will develop positional systems, including some relatively new teams. It gives all programmers (students and mentors) a lofty, but achievable goal. A camera based AI system in 6 weeks is not an achievable goal for nearly every FIRST team.
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Last edited by The Lucas : 16-03-2004 at 02:16.
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Unread 15-03-2004, 17:36
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Re: Future of Autonomous Mode

Quote:
Really at this point all you need is one guy and an hour or so to write all the basic code for the bot. Any more advanced stuff will take another couple of hours. It would be nice to have a team of programmers instead working around the clock like the rest of the team, trying to figure things out.
There's a lot for programmers to work on right now. It's often useful to compensate for mechanical quirks your robot may have, or to streamline your control system. If nothing else, there's plenty of work to be done on autonomous mode. If your team can afford sensors, they open up new possibilities and improve the accuracy of your existing code. Accelerometers, gyros, optical sensors, pots, and prox sensors all help. At the very least, you could always create dead reckoning programs.
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Unread 16-03-2004, 08:17
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Re: Future of Autonomous Mode

Its pretty easy to integrate a program running on a PC with the mini-RC using the serial port. You can code all of your low-level functions on the RC with any high-level processing on the PC. The PC handles all of your "big picture" task management and the RC handles IO and actuator control. Your PC program is basically acting as a smart operator in teleoperation mode. You could probably mount a small laptop on a simple mobile robot base or use a wireless serial adaptor.

Obviously you won't be able to use this on the real robot for the FRC, but what are you going to do for the other 46 weeks of the year?

Last edited by seanwitte : 16-03-2004 at 08:26.
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Unread 16-03-2004, 09:49
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Re: Future of Autonomous Mode

I think with most teams/programmers at the first regionals of the season, the priority was getting the robot up and running before worrying about autonomous. We will be going to our first regional of the year on Thursday and you can bet we will be worrying about getting the robot running before we finetune our auton code. By nats though, I expect that plenty of teams will have working auton modes.
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Unread 21-04-2004, 23:23
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Re: Future of Autonomous Mode

I havent seen one autonomous that took advantage of the capabilities of the upgraded chips. Until the programmers in this competition start learning this stuff, I think FIRST should just give use a handlfull of logic ICs for autonomous. And secondly, You dont need Pentium 4s and webcams for image processing or AI.

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Unread 22-04-2004, 11:41
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Re: Future of Autonomous Mode

Who needs webcams? To be perfectly honest, a pair of contacts on the front for continuity are great to find out if you are against a bot or the plexiglass wall, in addition to bumpers and what-not. Big companies are doing image recognition, I know I'm not ready to try it.

The only major improvement I can think of for the controller is a floating-point unit so we can do trig. Other than that, it's cool.
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