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  #31   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 09-04-2002, 09:01
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Re: My response to bigqueue

Quote:
Originally posted by George180

...
i don't advocate intentionaly mangling anybody's robot, but i may pay less attention to the damage i do to a fork lifter than any other robot.

George
Why? I see no reason for this. All damage should be paid close attention to and treated as bad.
Somewhat wants to score points, and your robot is worth points.
Someone sees your bot as valuable.
So they borrow it for a minute or two.
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Unread 09-04-2002, 10:25
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Bring it on!

I for one am excited about the possibility of seeing an effective kidnapping robot, given they do not damage the opponent's robot. Is this move offensive? Sure, as offensive as moving a goal or dumping a load of balls. If playing against a kidnapping robot, would I expect my team to do everything within the game to avoid be kidnapped? Sure, as I would expect them to try to prevent a team from capturing the game-winning goal or dumping the game-winning ball. Is there a risk? Absolutely. But I recall several matches this year where a robot was dumping a load of balls, and their opponent rammed into them attempting to jar them from the goal. This impact nearly resulted in the ball robot tipping over (and would have likely resulted in unintentional damage). Similarly, our robot actually lost an arm during a goal tugging war. Again, unintentional damage. I would anticipate that this type of unintentional damage would actually be more significant than a well-designed kidnapping robot would inflict. It's spelled out very clearly in the rules that this is an acceptable action.

However, all of this talk about offensive countermeasures or less care when playing a kidnapping robot bothers me. When playing against a goal-controlling robot, or a ball-gathering robot, we will employ strategies to attempt to win while maximizing qualifying points. The same is true for kidnapping robots. However, if these strategies are unsuccessful, you will not see us attempt to maliciously maul another robot, regardless of what kind of robot it is. That is truly ungracious proffesionalism at its worst, imho. Not only is it not good sportsmanship, but what kind of message does it send to the students?

While I respect the fact that your team spent 6 weeks pouring sweat, blood, and tears into the design, fabrication, and testing of your robot, I also recognize that any kidnapping robot team spent the same 6 weeks doing the same, with the additional responsibility of ensuring that they do not damage a robot that they kidnap. Until proven otherwise, I will always assume a kidnapping robot has met this challenge. How gracious would it be to assume otherwise?

Also, a fork-lifting robot is only a subset of a kidnapping robot. Heck, they might not even be designed to kidnap - merely to lift the front of a robot to reduce their opponent's traction. If it's legal, I'd like to see it at Nationals.
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Unread 09-04-2002, 11:25
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Thanks to all the defenders of our bot. I thank everyone who has thought this through logically and without bias. Our team definately respects all the work everyone has put into their robots and thusly thought our fork system through thouroughly. In no way do we ever intend to harm any machine. Bigque, kevin, wetzel, and everyone else who can look at this with an open mind and see there is nothing wrong with lifting, thank you.

Big Que I will definately come and see you in the pits at nats.
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Unread 09-04-2002, 11:28
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i don't mean to sound hypocritical... really =-]

i just meant to get across that i, personally, would have different strategies depending on the robot i face... ball grabbers -- keep them busy and away from the goals... goal grabbers -- get to the goals first... kidnappers -- get them before they get you

i think i tried to get too cute with my words and my meaning was lost... i'm no english major, after all =-]

George
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Unread 09-04-2002, 15:45
Ben Mitchell Ben Mitchell is offline
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I think a major pint being ignored is that even if damage is done unintentionally, a kidnapper robot can put another team out of a competition with severe damage.

I am NOT saying that all of these bots have evil intent, but their actions, by lifting another robot, increase the chances of damamging another robot.

I dont think anyone can refute that fact: By lifting a robot you are making a bet that the robot will survive unmarred. It is a gamble, and using another team's robot as a playing chip makes it a serious one.

As for comparing these robots to ball grabbers or goal mover being threatening on the field ...

You can always disengage when losiing a pushing war.

You can always try and outmanuver other bots if you are a ball grabber and get balls into another goal.

But when your robot is picked up, there is nothing you can do, and since colliding with them with the intent of jarring them loose is illegal (damage) they are protected by the ruels they exploit in order to pick up other robots.

A clear danger? No (did i say that, anyway?) But it does represent an increased risk. I don't think anyone can argue with that!

--Ben Mitchell
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Unread 09-04-2002, 15:59
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ben Mitchell
I think a major pint being ignored is that even if damage is done unintentionally, a kidnapper robot can put another team out of a competition with severe damage.

I am NOT saying that all of these bots have evil intent, but their actions, by lifting another robot, increase the chances of damamging another robot.

I dont think anyone can refute that fact: By lifting a robot you are making a bet that the robot will survive unmarred. It is a gamble, and using another team's robot as a playing chip makes it a serious one.

As for comparing these robots to ball grabbers or goal mover being threatening on the field ...

You can always disengage when losiing a pushing war.

You can always try and outmanuver other bots if you are a ball grabber and get balls into another goal.

But when your robot is picked up, there is nothing you can do, and since colliding with them with the intent of jarring them loose is illegal (damage) they are protected by the ruels they exploit in order to pick up other robots.

A clear danger? No (did i say that, anyway?) But it does represent an increased risk. I don't think anyone can argue with that!

--Ben Mitchell
Kidnapping robots are not exploiting any rules.

Many robots can not disengage in a pushing war.

However, I completely agree that a ball grabber can always try to outmaneuver a robot that may unintentionally damage it due to contact. This ALSO applies to the same robot when presented with a risk of being kidnapped. You have the same defense.

Again, many robots nearly tipped over at some of the regionals I've seen, and I believe the damage sustained if that were to occur would greatly exceed the damage being discussed here.

In last year's cooperative game, we went to an off-season competition in which there was an all-girls event. During this event, our robot became intertwined with one of our partners and a number of pneumatics hoses were ripped apart. It happens. We repaired our robot and continued to compete. At the very least, give these robots a chance to demonstrate the care they have taken in their design before whining about how they're going to rip your robot to pieces.
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Unread 09-04-2002, 16:12
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#1 Why would you have a robot unable to disengage a goal?
#2 pushing war = you must be pushing back, that's a voluntary act

#3 Outmanvuering (org. spelling) a robot to put balls in a goal, and running away from them because they're going to lift you up...and out...of the competition are two different situations. Sorry, but I can't see robot-lifters compared to ball-getters. They seem like opposites to me.


As for the care they put into a design? I probably wont care if their robot unintentionally mangles another. I'll state it once again:

!!!!!!!It presents a heightened risk!!!!!!!!!!

Is such a gamble safe and OK to do? Lifting up other bots sounds like a battlebots pillow fight, not like FIRST.

As for robots tipping over: if they nearly tip in a pushing war, odds are they will fall over if lifted, right?

Its a wonderful feat of engineering, but its for Battlebots, Sorry guys, Carmen Electra's in the other robotics competition. (Ouch, that hurts)

As for me whining, I don't think you'll have to worry about that. I try and present my argument with clarity and reasoning, something that sometimes lacks when just opinions are presented...

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Unread 09-04-2002, 16:35
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Keep it to the point, please

Quote:
Originally posted by Ben Mitchell
#3 Outmanvuering (org. spelling) ...
Making personal attacks about typos really undermines any credibility you've built up. When I see stuff like this I usually ignore the rest of the post since it appears you're only interested in attacking stupid things instead of making a valid point.

Nobody is a perfect typist. I don't think any of us want our posts picked apart for typos.

Andy: would this violate the "Prive Directive"?
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Unread 09-04-2002, 16:39
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ben Mitchell


#1 Why would you have a robot unable to disengage a goal?

...
--Ben Mitchell

<<Faint hearts have never won fair lasses>>
I have seen many a robot that once they latch onto a goal, they stay latched for they have no realse mechanism.
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Unread 09-04-2002, 16:46
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ben Mitchell
#1 Why would you have a robot unable to disengage a goal?
#2 pushing war = you must be pushing back, that's a voluntary act

#3 Outmanvuering (org. spelling) a robot to put balls in a goal, and running away from them because they're going to lift you up...and out...of the competition are two different situations. Sorry, but I can't see robot-lifters compared to ball-getters. They seem like opposites to me.


As for the care they put into a design? I probably wont care if their robot unintentionally mangles another. I'll state it once again:

!!!!!!!It presents a heightened risk!!!!!!!!!!

Is such a gamble safe and OK to do? Lifting up other bots sounds like a battlebots pillow fight, not like FIRST.

As for robots tipping over: if they nearly tip in a pushing war, odds are they will fall over if lifted, right?

Its a wonderful feat of engineering, but its for Battlebots, Sorry guys, Carmen Electra's in the other robotics competition. (Ouch, that hurts)

As for me whining, I don't think you'll have to worry about that. I try and present my argument with clarity and reasoning, something that sometimes lacks when just opinions are presented...

--Ben Mitchell

<<Faint hearts have never won fair lasses>>
Ben, we have a robot that can not disengage a goal because it is impossible for a robot to steal it once we've latched on. In fact, a great many robots I've seen are similar. If it can be unlatched intentionally during the match, it can be unlatched unintentionally during the match, hence the motivation.

Regarding the pushing war - see above. If you can not disengage, then you are going to be in a pushing war regardless. It's something that should've been considered during the design. Every team should know that opponents may go after goals and attempt to steal them. Just like every team should know that opponents may go after your robot and attempt to steal it. It's in the rules. It will be exciting to watch. It's perfectly legal, gracious, and professional.

When we brainstorm, we recognize that there are a lot of teams, and that practically every design we brainstorm will be seen in one form or another. If it's in the rules, it will be there. Likewise, you should account for such things when designing your robot. Failure to do so is not the fault of the fork-lifting robot who does.
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Unread 09-04-2002, 19:32
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My 2 cents:
As for not being able to disengage a goal, I've seen 6 teams not able to do so. Some on purpose, some unfourtantly not.
As for the forklift idea- it's a great idea! During the design phase my team actually had though of this, and to use our tethered mini me (that stays in our home zone) be a mini dolli that holds up the robot. I'm sharing this now because we didn't use the design for forklifts (we aimed for goal grabbing instead) and thought it was a neat idea to share. I haven't seen any forklifting mechanisms yet and I am anxious to see a good one.
Is it illegal? Nope. Just keep them down while running, and you won't damage anyone and get disqualified.
As for the attacking people based on typos and, in fact, many of the arguments I've witnessed here on the boards- that's childish. That is not gracious professionalism. If you are angry at a certain team's robot simply because of it's design or effectiveness (or lack thereof) or of an individual because he supports a certain view (as long as the view is not ignorant [basically without fact like one person in the rumor mill saying other teams cheated] or a blatant LIE which I've also unfourtantly seen) then suck it up. You won't get through life arguing with every individual you'll meet. You are not always right and you will not always win an argument. One last statement on arugements- learn to fight them better. Not all of you, just a select few that pick out stupid points or don't do their homework and make up facts out of the blue. It's a useful skill to argue intelligently
As for FIRST gracious professionalism, I think that includes open mindedness to new designs and robot concepts. The forklift is one of them.
My 2 cents, as I stated. Sorry if it's late or if I got off topic. And since the nationals are coming up, good luck to every team. I can't wait to see those forklifts!
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Unread 09-04-2002, 19:36
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One last thing I accidentally forgot. A pushing war is tough to get out of. If they intend on ramming you into a wall, and you wish to escape, you will have to turn out of it, not back up. If you turn out of it, you may get hit in such a way you will be pushed by your side or turned roughly to the side. That turn may damage you. Also, the pushing may be so intense that turning is simply no longer an option, being that you are either up against a wall already or to turn on 1 side of wheels for but a second is enough time to let them start pushing you across the field.
So, it is indeed possible to not be able to disengage from a pushing war. By the way, I've seen some good pushers out there, so the scenario of extreme pushing is possible- I've seen it happen at Rutgers.
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Unread 09-04-2002, 20:01
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Looking for 862 picture on firstrobotics.net....not there. Such an interesting discussion and I can't picture the machine....
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Unread 09-04-2002, 20:13
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Yea! 862 could you kindly provide us a picture?
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Unread 10-04-2002, 10:23
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I am curious - what has in fact been the performance record of the "kidnapper" bots at the Regionals so far? This thread has had a good bit of speculation and opinion, but what has actually happened?

I don't mean trapping an opponent in your home zone and blocking him till the buzzer, and I don't mean pushing him into the home zone. I mean either picking up the opponent and carrying - with a "forklift" that goes underneath - or grappling and dragging with a gripper of some kind.

There was a really neat looking fork bot in the pits near us at UTC/NE (sorry, guys, I forget your number), but I didn't see it manage to pull off an abduction during any of the matches.

Finally - my opinion/attitude - it's a made-up game with arbitrary rules. It's a design space. Anything and EVERYTHING in the design space is fair game. To impose one's own restrictions on some things in the space as being unprofessional or ungracious is to be unprepared. The rules regarding kidnapping were there at the beginning (unlike some other unfortunate examples this year), they were questioned/discussed/interpreted/clarified early on, and they were not subsequently modified or rescinded. The possible consequences of the kidnapping rules are simply part of the game this year. When we designed our bot, we accepted that we should not have delicate hardware exposed on the underneath side, such that forks or a platform poked under there and lifting would cause serious damage.

We were not HAPPY about this whole kidnapping thing, and we worried about the RISK of (unintentional) damage, but we could not afford to ignore the possibility of robots being designed to play a kidnapping strategy. In fact, one of the really neat things about FIRST is that virtually anything that the rules allow almost inevitably WILL show up in some team's robot. Seeing the amazingly creative executions, and then watching how the strategies play out in the matches is a blast. I've always thought that cruising the pits beats every hot rod show I've ever seen.

Dodd
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