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View Poll Results: Is Battlebots I.Q. a threat to FIRST?
Nope, true quality and decency will show through, XFL 77 34.53%
Although Battlebots will climb up, they won't be that big, think UPN vs. NBC, ABC, or CBS 56 25.11%
They will be on the same level, like American and National baseball leagues 39 17.49%
Battelbots IQ is a better concept and will triumph over FIRST 12 5.38%
Don't Care 39 17.49%
Voters: 223. You may not vote on this poll

 
 
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  #22   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 19-04-2002, 17:50
Frank Frank is offline
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no team (rookie team in 2003)
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 1
Frank will become famous soon enoughFrank will become famous soon enough
Post view of a 2003 rookie team

To Mr. B, Nola, Lucien, and others – I agree with Mr. B that being open minded is important and crucial. However, just because some people do not feel BB and BBIQ are positive programs, I think it is unfair to brand them as close minded. It is possible they have weighed the pros & cons of each program and have just come to a different, non biased conclusion as you have. For some in this thread, it is virtually impossible to argue an unbiased and fair comparison of FIRST to BB or BBIQ, as they are employed/paid by BB and BBIQ, just as the arguments of FIRST employees would be equally biased – it is only natural when looking at a debate to get “defensive” and “defend” the program you are associated with and maybe over look some of it’s problems.

Please excuse the length of this post: We have read all the arguments in favor/against each program and a group of us have spent a lot of time/thought trying to combine all our thoughts into this one reply (adults – thanks for the proof reading and helping us put some ideas in a more sophisticated tone) ….

We are starting a robotics program/team at our school next year. We researched BOTH programs in great detail, have watched videos/TV of both competitions, and have interviewed participants of BOTH programs – and we feel that both competitions have positive aspects. Let us share with you how/why our school has deemed one program to be of much higher value than the other:

In all the arguments about the two programs, we have concluded that a few things are true about each program:

BOTH FIRST and BB/BBIQ encourage and promote science, technology, and engineering.

BOTH FIRST and BB/BBIQ provide great, exciting, and fun competitions that celebrate what the students/teams have built.

We have also found a few criticisms of each program to be slanted/unfair/inaccurate:

Size constraints:
Some have criticized FIRST for not having a National Competition open to ALL. We called BBIQ, and they told us that there would be a cap for their National Event if hundreds of participants ever enter (but they only got in the mid 40’s). BBIQ will also limit the size of their events, just as FIRST does. This is not the fault of EITHER program – it is just logistics and reality.
We have concluded both are the same/equal in this category.

Student/engineer involvement:
FIRST students DO participate and build the robots just as much as BB students. Do some teams have the engineers do a majority of the work, yes. Do some engineers do most of the work on FIRST teams AND BB teams, yes. Is it up to each team to decide how much design/build/machining work the students do? Yes. So the argument that one program includes the students more is worthless in our judgment, as it is up to each team to decide (and in each competition our team would go up against robots built almost entirely by engineers – which we don’t mind and consider a challenge). We don’t want the students to do this alone – that is what a science fair is. We want to learn concepts and designs which we don’t currently have the education & experience to do – hopefully we can do this hand in hand with real engineers who will build a robot with us and hopefully we will learn things from the engineers and they will learn things from us.
We have concluded both are the same/equal in this category.

Cost of each program:
“BBIQ is cheaper than FIRST” – untrue. The guise of only costing $100 appears nice. But we have called and spoke to numerous teams in each competition. Once BBIQ teams include the cost of the control system, motors, speed controllers, and other things which come with the FIRST registration fee – the cost is similar. BBIQ teams told us their budgets JUST on the robots (without travel) were 5-10k. FIRST is actually cheaper than BBIQ because we can compete in a regional event and don’t have to travel to another part of the country to compete – so it is actually 5-10k LESS for us to participate in. Plus, FIRST gives us the OPTION of ALSO qualifying for and raising the funds for a National Competition – our choice if we qualify.
We have concluded both are the same/equal in this category if we compete in the National Championship, but that FIRST is cheaper if we compete in one event.

Money/incentive/rewards:
BBIQ promotes the possibility of being on TV and/or getting royalties if our robots are made into toys. This is cool, and a point for BBIQ. FIRST promotes over 2 million dollars of scholarships available to students on FIRST teams. This is cool and a point for FIRST. We have also concluded that the money carrot dangled by BBIQ is dependent on their ratings and sponsors (which will not be around once the ratings go down since BB’s is a for profit endeavor 1st while FIRST is a non-profit “for the kids” endeavor 1st) while the scholarships offered by FIRST are more likely to continue to exist and in fact increase each year.
We have concluded both are almost the same/equal in this category - slight advantage to BB in terms of getting on TV and slight advantage to FIRST in terms of financial rewards (scholarships are more important/valuable than money payoffs, and are more likely to be around for years to come as they are dependent on ratings).

And last, as concluded by our administration (principal) after looking at both of our proposals – which program promotes the right values and sends the right message:

Both programs require the students to learn science & technology skills, however the end product/message of the two programs are different. The end product is displayed at the competition. The FIRST competition displays alliances, teamwork, good sportsmanship, rules, and excitement - but in a competitive sports “team” model where the teams are encouraged to outperform/out score the other alliance. She decided that FIRST encourages kids to “raise the bar” and “challenges the team to improve upon the designs/ideas/advancements made by other teams”. She decided that the BB and BBIQ competitions display “one on one” combat where the only “guaranteed” way to be victorious is to destroy/disable/hurt/kill your opponent. She feels BB and BBIQ promote the “solution to the problem is violence – hurt/disable/kill your opponent to be victorius” while FIRST promotes the “solution to the problem is teamwork, raising the bar, and doing better than your opponent without having to hurt/disable/destroy them”. She said that while the first 90% of both programs (FIRST and BBIQ) are similar and promote/encourage science, technology, and engineering – the last 10%, the product displayed to the public at the competitions and on TV sends a different message.
In sports terms:
the finished product for FIRST comes across as the Olympics – celebrates training, raising the bar, good sportsmanship, and positive values.
The finished product of BB and BBIQ comes across as the WWF, a %%%%/rooster fight, or a pit bull fight – and celebrates winning by disabling/hurting/killing your opponent. She says as a principal, she would be fired and liable for supporting/condoning students participating in a %%%%/rooster fight or pit bull fight and that if you put roosters or pit bulls in a Battlebots arena instead of robots – that is EXACLTY what the competition is (except that it is combined with the Texas Chainsaw Massacre, where a third party controls chain saws which also try to kill the combatants – would be like a referee in sports being able to randomly hit the participants with a hammer or chainsaw).
Our school concluded (and our students agree after looking at both programs with what we consider an “open minded, researched, and informed” analysis) that FIRST is a positive program for our school to participate in which also promotes the right values and message to our students.
We have concluded that FIRST is clearly a better option and program for our students in this category.

We hope this came across as an “open minded” analysis of each program and pointed out the many similarities between the two. We have spent many months considering both programs. Basically – both programs are very equal except that BB and BBIQ have “kill saws” and encourage us to find a way to disable/destroy/or kill our opponent. As students, we see enough one on one “disagreements” at school solved after school or during lunch by fighting and trying to hurt the other person to be the “winner”. FIRST seems to hold more positive values and is more challenging (more engineering tasks to conquer each year + the game changes each year which we find much more appealing). If BB and BBIQ changed their competition to have “civil/sportsmanship” rules, encourage solutions not based on violence, and changed the game each year - our school and especially us students would love to participate in it. But until then, we will opt for FIRST – just our conclusion, and everyone has the right to analyze each program and decide whatever they want. Both programs can co-exist, just as Olympic Wrestling and the WWF co-exist – they just promote different skills, different values, and get different media coverage. As much as they want to promote the similar positive aspects BB/BBIQ provide when compared to FIRST - we don’t think BB/BBIQ supporters can deny that their end product (competition) sends a message of “violence as the solution to a problem” while FIRST does the opposite. Again, sorry for the length, we just thought what we felt is an “open minded” analysis of the debate might hold some value to some people. Maybe not.

Thanks for having a forum everyone can post their views - it has helped us as we start our team.

Frank and team 000 until a few months from now. (we'll be watching the National on NASA TV!!!! - Good luck everyone)
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sorry about no team number, joint school rookie team starting in 2003
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