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View Poll Results: Is Battlebots I.Q. a threat to FIRST?
Nope, true quality and decency will show through, XFL 77 34.53%
Although Battlebots will climb up, they won't be that big, think UPN vs. NBC, ABC, or CBS 56 25.11%
They will be on the same level, like American and National baseball leagues 39 17.49%
Battelbots IQ is a better concept and will triumph over FIRST 12 5.38%
Don't Care 39 17.49%
Voters: 223. You may not vote on this poll

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  #31   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 22-04-2002, 02:13
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The bottom line?

After posting on this thread and reading the direction in which it was going, I honestly stopped checking up on it.

Just out of curiosity, I checking again on this thread, and found it very thought provoking, how could so many people have so many views so passionately over the same issue?

I took a step back and realized, what FIRST has meant to me, is what I have made out of it. My expieriences do not neccessarily reflect those of others.

Being in the organization I have participated in, a primarily student-run organization and facing the unique hardships that our team has had has really made me feel good about this program.

I suppose each of these programs are a venue for engineers, mentors and students to spend their time and effort for and with.

What comes out of each of these programs greatly relies on what YOU as a person make out of it. It can be as little or as life changing as you want it to be.

I can say that I am a FIRST-o-holic, but at the same time I enjoy watching battlebots as a show.

That is my stance, that is what I think because that is what I make of it.

I hope many others can see it this way, and understand how others feel of the programs respectively.

There is no universal good and bad. But I know what's good for me.
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Unread 22-04-2002, 10:28
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Quote:
a man from my town built a battlebot, clambot ......... and while they won the competition, it never got aired because it wasnt glamorous..... see that dissapoints me too, because comedy central just shows the robots that bring the ratings
If it had won the competition, it would have been aired - one thing CC does is air every finals match no matter what happened. He might have won a fight... but it takes winning two or three to even start getting recorded.


Quote:
BB IQ has ONE event in ONE city in the country - which means if your school is not from that city, it will cost anywhere from 10-40k to participate
I guess it's an issue of motivation - My team kept costs down by driving 17 hours straight to get there. Combined with 3K for the bot, I think we spent a total of 5k for the event.

Also, didn't FIRST only have one event in one city it's first time? I believe BB is going to regionals in the near future, so it will make this point moot.

Another point is that Battlebots are a bit more reusable - The first year of competition costs more, then most teams rebuild with parts they already have. FIRST is different every year, so they bots have to be totally rebuilt from scratch.


Quote:
I have spoke to many BB's teams who have spent 25-50k on their robots.
For regular Battlebots, yeah, I'd expect that. I can pretty confidently say no BBIQ bot cost that much, though. If one did, they wasted some serious cash, as it didn't show up in the bot.


Quote:
Can FIRST or BB's find a way to make the game a TV draw (ratings) without selling out and giving into the way CC sells robotics (sex/violence)? That is the challenge I would like to see either/both programs tackle.
BBIQ hasen't actually been on TV yet. Only regular BB has, and as I said, many BB builders disagree with how CC treats the show; That's just CC, not the competition itself.


Quote:
I have heard BB IQ supporters defend criticism by pointing out that high schools have wrestling teams. That is true - wrestling is a competitive sport with rules much like FIRST: train hard, try to be strong, fast, agile, powerful, smart, etc... but if you break rules such as bite, break an arm, poke a person in the eye, or try to cut the other wrestlers head off with a chain saw then YOU are the loser. BB IQ would be the equivalent of a school starting a WWF wrestling team - all the pre event training would hold value - but once competing, if the other competitor happens to be faster, stronger, bigger, smarter, more agile than you - then don't worry about training harder to come back better, you can still win if you just hit them over the head with a chair, bite them, poke them in the eye, or hey, just push them into a "kill saw". Any principal in the country would be fired instantly for supporting or promoting a WWF team to their students - and rightfully so.
Umm, most of that stuff is highly against wrestling rules. BB bots operate within the confines of the rule sets. It's a totally different thing.

Overall, I find it pretty hard to believe that BB encourages real life violence, as many rabid FIRST supporters seem to say. This comes from the voice of experience, I've been heavily involved with Battlebots for years and haven't seen that as an issue at any point in time. And if you aren't saying it causes RL violence... then what's the problem?



Now, I'm going to be up front about something here. I really do think FIRST is a better program for some schools. I also think BBIQ is a better program for others. And most of all, I think that any school that can should do both - They are different challenges, require different ways of thinking, and both are educational in a different way.

Last edited by vortex : 22-04-2002 at 10:30.
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Unread 22-04-2002, 19:58
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Hey, before things get out of hand, I wanted to say I respect your opinions, and I like what you have to say.

Thanks for continuing to post.
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Unread 22-04-2002, 20:21
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well, FISRT rulez ;-)

Hi everybody!

I think FIRST will live longer than Battlebots although Battlebots has its own TV-show every week and you only hear occasionly from FIRST on TV.

FIRST has every year a new game with new rules that make it a challenge to build this new robot that is able to achive the game challenge really well while Battlebots will always be "Destroy their robot and you win".

FISRT has more complex games that allow millions of different strategies and all robots are different from each other while you find certain types of robots again and again at Battlebots!

So long, Philip
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  #35   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 22-04-2002, 22:22
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well i dont know how accurate my information is..... i just know that they won the competition and they were complaining about not being on television and trying to spice up the robot for next time........ maybe they got aired once and expected more or something, i dont know, they just thought it was dissapointing that they didnt get much credit for winning because they had no spice
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  #36   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 01-05-2002, 16:45
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Not Invented Here!

Might I suggest that there are many possibilities beyond the 'A: You must either be my friend and not like her! or B: If you are her friend, you aren't my friend' approach that I see many people eager to embrace.

In the engineering business, we see many instances where people will put their head in the sand and ignore other opportunities. This is sometimes called the 'not invented here' syndrome.

Up in the physics room, there are several boxes of FIRST parts that are left over from the last three competitions that our high school has been involved with. There are enough parts there to build two or three more robots. The control system can be rotated amongst them, and we can, of course, find additional motors, wheels, etc.

I found that some of the kids on our FIRST team got very fired up to turn some shafts in the metal shop, or to wire the robot, or to write the programming code. Something about building a fun project rather than doing it because it is homework. Turn these kids loose with a bit of guidance, and you have a recipe for experiential learning. They will have a blast building, even if the robot is never taken to a competition.

There are small regional competitions springing up all over the country. There will be opportunities for participation without the cost of flying to Orlando or to San Francisco. Of course, if you choose to go to the big show, then you have to get there. No different than traveling for any other event. If the theater group wants to go to NYC, it costs money. If the cheerleaders want to go to a national competition, it costs money.

I have been to FIRST, and I have been to Battlebots. The safety inspection at Battlebots is much tougher than what we saw at FIRST. I have seen good competitors, and so-so competitors at both events. In many ways, I was disappointed by a number of the mentors at FIRST who had the same mentality as some of the parents in the stands at a high school football game. But in general, I would take the pit areas at FIRST or BB over a high school game any day.

I hope BB continues to grow in popularity and commercial success. When I show our Battlebots to students, it gives me a chance to talk about technical skills, problem solving, and project planning.

'When horse is dead, dismount!'

I need to get back to wiring the robots. They get shipped next week!

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Unread 08-09-2002, 19:30
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My two cents:

Battlebots IQ may recieve more attention (though I don't think it will be able to eclipse regular battle bots), I think recruiting corporate sponsors would be easier for First teams because:
1) The risk that your investment would be destroyed in a humiliating failure (like from a disconected battery) would sour sponsors.
2) Sponsors who want the Battle Bots-type publicity would probably choose to go for the Battle Bots and not the IQ competition (think Major league v. minor leagues, where the attention goes to the pros, while the minors attract modest local attention only).

First was remain the first high school robotics competition and that distinction may serve it well. When schools look at creating a new robotics team, they have the more academic, friendly, "gracious professionalism" of First versus the 'Crush, kill, destroy' mentality of Battle Bots. So, do I worry about First, no, do I worry about new teams being drawn to the dark side, a little.

But I do feel that Battle Bots IQ is an ersatz attempt to duplicat the First success, as is best evidenced by their choosing to hold the competition in Universal Studios, Orlando, rather than someplace else (for the first competition, too!). The second First national was held in my high school gym. To see the deep down character of each competition, we would be well served to look at their beginnings and compare where they started and how far they each got in twelve years.
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Unread 08-09-2002, 19:42
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Re: well, FISRT rulez ;-)

Quote:
Originally posted by PsychoPhil
Hi everybody!

I think FIRST will live longer than Battlebots although Battlebots has its own TV-show every week and you only hear occasionly from FIRST on TV.

FIRST has every year a new game with new rules that make it a challenge to build this new robot that is able to achive the game challenge really well while Battlebots will always be "Destroy their robot and you win".

FISRT has more complex games that allow millions of different strategies and all robots are different from each other while you find certain types of robots again and again at Battlebots!

So long, Philip
i agree.
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  #39   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 15-09-2002, 14:45
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Quote:
Originally posted by Matt Attallah
I think Battlebots will become big when robot technology can be reached to everyone, including in low-income homes. Look at wrestling, that is a huge violent sport, and look how big it has become. When RC controllers, micro-chips&processors, etc... come down, i do think eveyone will be out for robots like battle bots. Hey, it's in human nature, when, for the most part, BIG things happen, they usually are violent, and everyone wants to know what happened...
Just a little sidenote but wrestling is on the verge of dying out. They are scrambling for ratings. Personally for me I've learned more about gear ratios, motors, and batteries by studying for building a battlebot than building a first robot. In my opinion it's lack of regulations(actually its a lot of rules) like not using the same battery makes it much more challenging and much more of an learning experience. First is older than battlebots by 3 or 4 years I think which makes it hard to believe that it will die out. Also you guys make the arguement that battlebots is one event in one area well your wrong. There are little events poping all over the united states and you don't have to travel very far to get to one. Just name a state. Battlebots may not have been picked up by comedy central(and thank you lord) for the sixth season but don't count it out. If any of you actually visit the battlebots forums and I know that some of you guys do they really don't like Carmen or the wrestling feel Comedy Central gives it.
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Unread 13-04-2005, 13:43
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Re: Battlebots I.Q.- A serious threat to FIRST or a half thought up cheep copy?

I wonder if anyone that originally posted is still on here, but I thought I would chime in on this.

I am a teacher that has lead a FIRST team for three years now, and this school year we introduced BBIQ to three sections of an introductory engineering course. I really liked the fact that BBIQ fit so well into a school day, and FIRST was prefect for after-school. I would agree that anyone who sees a Battlebot match will "ooh and ahh" over it. I just think it is natural instinct think sparks and flying metal looks cool. I am all about getting kids to use their math and science skills to do something, and I think BBIQ has a better edge over FIRST for a class in school.

The biggest problem I had with BBIQ is that our school did and does not have the shop facility to build a robot. With our FIRST team, we partnered up with a machine shop and they did all of the milling and intricate work. The students then took that "part" from them and did all the rest with our basic hand tools and drills. BBIQ is supposed to be about kids doing all of the work, and that is what I really wanted to do; we just were not able to do all of the welding, milling, and turning that is required.

I also really liked the fact that BBIQ has a written curriculum ready for use. It is really nice; I have used it for a while year now, and I really like it.

In the end, I think both are great. As Nola, the founder of BBIQ says, you can like two different things. I think they both have their merit.

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Unread 13-04-2005, 14:43
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Exclamation Re: Battlebots I.Q.- A serious threat to FIRST or a half thought up cheep copy?

It seems as though a lot of people on this thread although having an open mind about the two different competitions still feel that there is actually a difference. They both, game rules aside, follow the same basic principles.

1.) gracious professionalism, in the pits
2.) inspiring and exciting people about engineering

It would be selfish to view BBIQ as something negative or a threat when they are in effect creating the same exciting environment for students to learn in. FIRST doesn't need to be the only organization that attempts to do this.

I think people should only view it as positive, although its definitely different than what most FIRST veterans are used to. It can only do good in the long run.

As for BBIQ getting more television and media coverage that FIRST it really is a shame people don't understand more about the program and what it tries to accomplish but even if they were able to see it on t.v. they would in no way be able to create the same opinion or feeling for the program as they would being involved in a team and seeing what its like to devote months of you life during the year to your team or FIRST.
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Unread 13-04-2005, 15:14
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Re: Battlebots I.Q.- A serious threat to FIRST or a half thought up cheep copy?

IQ has existed for a few years now, and hasnt seriously jeopordized FIRST. The largest problem some people find wiht FIRST is that you build a new robot every year. with Battlebots, you can keep the same one around for quite some time. I actually prefer a new game and a new robot each year, but some feel differently. The two programs approach the problem of inspiring high schoolers into the fields of match, science, engineering, and robotics from opposite ends of the spectrum. Battlebots IQ is trying to be entertaining and appealing to the youth. But upon the almost complete downfall of its big brother Battebots, it seriously jeopordized its ability to do that. FIRST is approaching more from a business and education standpoint. FIRST tries harder to build skills needed in the real world (alliance partners and communication for instance).
The biggest threat IQ poses is if it gets more publicity and starts to create a rebirth of Battlebots and robot fighting. It woud instantly become more popular. But FIRST has its own weapon now, the FIRST VEX challenge, which could be used to counter-act that.
But the two programs can co-exist. Because BBIQ has no formal build season and the game stays almost constant, a team can build a bot for both if it had the funding and desire. You could build a BBIQ bot in the summer/fall and a FIRST bot in the winter. The only problem is that the two competitions happen around the same time of year (which seems heavily to suggest BBIQ is trying to compete with FIRST).

edit: Plus BB the show no longer exists, there goes BBIQ's biggest publicity
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Unread 13-04-2005, 16:06
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Re: Battlebots I.Q.- A serious threat to FIRST or a half thought up cheep copy?

Quote:
But FIRST has its own weapon now, the FIRST VEX challenge, which could be used to counter-act that.
Actually Battlebots IQ was first to come out with a competition similar to the First Vex challenge. The only problem is that no one knew about it and the kits are three times more expensive.
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Unread 13-04-2005, 18:41
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Re: Battlebots I.Q.- A serious threat to FIRST or a half thought up cheep copy?

I think that there are two reasons that Battlebots IQ won't triumph over FIRST. One, Battlebots IQ offers a far greater chance of destroying your robot in a blink of an eye (although some may like that). And second it doesn't offer the same type of evolution that FIRST does Battlebots IQ is simply a KILL KILL KILL type of game. Although I do think it would be fun to participate in an organization like Battlebots IQ, FIRST is definitely more appealing
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Unread 13-04-2005, 20:21
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Re: Battlebots I.Q.- A serious threat to FIRST or a half thought up cheep copy?

I firmly believe if FIRST received as much TV time as battlebots, it would be more popular and recieve MUCH more respect than it's destructive 'rivals'.

Racing is to FIRST as demolition derbies are to battlebots. I don't know about you, but demolition derbies are hard to find on TV nowadays...

Although demolition derbies are fun to watch, when cars have a purpose (as robots do in first) it sure is a LOT more prestigious.
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