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Unread 23-06-2002, 22:25
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Re: Yet another compromise

Posted by Dodd Stacy, Engineer on team #95, Lebanon Robotics Team, from Lebanon High School and CRREL/CREARE.

Posted on 4/9/99 12:31 PM MST


In Reply to: Re: Yet another compromise posted by Chris on 4/9/99 9:51 AM MST:




: What does everyone think of these changes?

This speaks directly to the time advantage of the teams attending multi regionals. I had forgotten about the compensatory time in the present rules for teams attending only the Nationals. I like your suggestion. Maybe if the other teams were required to play 100 dB music, sleep on the floor, run their machines into the wall every hour, and subsist on pizza during the comp time it would be fair for all.

Dodd


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Implementation Suggestion

Posted by Dodd Stacy, Engineer on team #95, Lebanon Robotics Team, from Lebanon High School and CRREL/CREARE.

Posted on 4/9/99 12:54 PM MST


In Reply to: Re: Yet another compromise posted by Chris on 4/9/99 9:51 AM MST:



Try this, for all of us who have a hard time wrapping up the build phase and reclaiming our lives without the shipping deadline: We all ship as under the current rules, and we're down until our first Regional (or till the National, for those teams doing only the one). We play our Regional(s). Each team, after its LAST Regional, then has comp time with their robot as per Chris' formula (if they wish), and then ships to Orlando at the end of their comp time. This is dead level even for ALL teams on time for machine development/practise/etc. But it ALSO puts the same onus on all teams to put a ready-to-run bot in the box on the same date. Pretty embarrassing (and expensive) to show up at your first Regional not ready to rock (at least by Friday). It seems to me like this speaks both to equity and to human (engineer, anyway) nature. The teams who DO play many Regionals get the definite advantage of competition in developing their machine and their play. Those who don't get to spend time with their machine that the playing teams don't by virtue of being on the road and having fixed pit hours. It also gives time to rebuild serious smashups from a first and only Regional before the Nat'ls.

What do you think?


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I'd go for that

Posted by Joe Johnson, Engineer on team #47, Chief Delphi, from Pontiac Central High School and Delphi Automotive Systems.

Posted on 4/9/99 4:18 PM MST


In Reply to: Implementation Suggestion posted by Dodd Stacy on 4/9/99 12:54 PM MST:



I could go for that.

There might have to be some tweaking of the formula one way or the other, but it sounds like a plan that could be made to work.

As to the logistics of different ship dates, I propose we take a page out of the IRS Playbook. FIRST should put out a form and an instruction book and then put the burden of proof back on the teams. I guess that FIRST would have to have clearly defined penalties for failure to file and late payment etc. but I think FIRST could work that out ;-)

Bottom line: Sounds like the beginnings of a plan everyone can live with.

Joe J.


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good idea

Posted by Ken Patton, Engineer on team #65, The Huskie Brigade, from Pontiac Northern High School and GM Powertrain.

Posted on 4/10/99 5:27 AM MST


In Reply to: Implementation Suggestion posted by Dodd Stacy on 4/9/99 12:54 PM MST:



I like it - it seems like a fair solution to the problem. It would be more of a logistical problem for FIRST, but it might help them in one area, by spreading out all the faxes they get on ship date!

I'm for it.

Ken

btw, we got the rich corinthian leather seats plus wet bar option for the helicopter, so it only seats 4 - we'll probably have to get a fleet of them.... )

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good idea

Posted by Ken Patton, Engineer on team #65, The Huskie Brigade, from Pontiac Northern High School and GM Powertrain.

Posted on 4/10/99 5:45 AM MST


In Reply to: Implementation Suggestion posted by Dodd Stacy on 4/9/99 12:54 PM MST:



I like it - it seems like a fair solution to the problem. It would be more of a logistical problem for FIRST, but it might help them in one area, by spreading out all the faxes they get on ship date!

I'm for it.

Ken

btw, we got the rich corinthian leather seats plus wet bar option for the helicopter, so it only seats 4 - we'll probably have to get a fleet of them.... )

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Unread 23-06-2002, 22:26
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Re: Implementation Suggestion

Posted by Chris, Coach on team #308, Walled Lake Monster, from Walled Lake Schools and TRW Automotive Electronics.

Posted on 4/10/99 7:32 AM MST


In Reply to: Implementation Suggestion posted by Dodd Stacy on 4/9/99 12:54 PM MST:



GREAT suggestion, Dodd. This sounds almost perfect. I think the overall solution may need a little tweaking in the formula, but who knows. I think this is something that FIRST would buy.

What do you think is the best way for us to go about suggesting this to FIRST in a manner that will be most likely for them to accept it?

Also, HUUUUUUUUUUUUGE thanks to the Delphi team and this site. Without it (or an equivalent forum), nothing would have happened. Thanks to this forum, a compromise was reached using ideas from quite a few people that should make almost everyone happy.



: Try this, for all of us who have a hard time wrapping up the build phase and reclaiming our lives without the shipping deadline: We all ship as under the current rules, and we're down until our first Regional (or till the National, for those teams doing only the one). We play our Regional(s). Each team, after its LAST Regional, then has comp time with their robot as per Chris' formula (if they wish), and then ships to Orlando at the end of their comp time. This is dead level even for ALL teams on time for machine development/practise/etc. But it ALSO puts the same onus on all teams to put a ready-to-run bot in the box on the same date. Pretty embarrassing (and expensive) to show up at your first Regional not ready to rock (at least by Friday). It seems to me like this speaks both to equity and to human (engineer, anyway) nature. The teams who DO play many Regionals get the definite advantage of competition in developing their machine and their play. Those who don't get to spend time with their machine that the playing teams don't by virtue of being on the road and having fixed pit hours. It also gives time to rebuild serious smashups from a first and only Regional before the Nat'ls.

: What do you think?


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Take a poll, FIRST is watching...

Posted by Daniel, Student on team #192, Gunn Robotics Team, from Henry M Gunn Senior High School and NASA Ames.

Posted on 4/10/99 10:47 AM MST


In Reply to: Re: Implementation Suggestion posted by Chris on 4/10/99 7:32 AM MST:



Don't jump to conclusions. Although it's a great idea, we've hardly had anyone agree yet; just a handful of people. I suggest reposting this proposal at the top of the forum for those who are too lazy to scroll down.

And as to proposing this idea to FIRST, chances are you already have. FIRST, as Vince said, monitors these pages very closely. If we can show that many people agree with this suggestion, they may choose to implement it. Let's take a poll at the top of the page...

I'll be waiting for your post.

-Daniel
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Re: Implementation Suggestion

Posted by Raul, Engineer on team #111, Wildstang, from Rolling Meadows & Wheeling HS and Motorola.

Posted on 4/11/99 9:44 PM MST


In Reply to: Implementation Suggestion posted by Dodd Stacy on 4/9/99 12:54 PM MST:



Evening out the field by providing more time to those that do not go to multiple regionals is a good idea. But, as long as we are going to completely change the rules, how about this (I think Joe J suggested this a long time ago):

Many sports have class divisions based on some criteria. For example high school and college sports are broken up by school size. Baseball has A, AA, AAA and the Majors. Maybe we can use this analogy. What if we had divisions such as A, AA, etc.? The rookie or novice teams that do not have much funding could compete in these classes. Those that have plenty of experience and funding can go to the top class. A rookie team could choose to join a higher class with the understanding that they would be competing against the best. Regionals could cover some or all the classes. The nationals could occur at different dates or times for each class thereby allowing more teams to compete.

We could have classes for 'totally student built' or 'shoestring budget' or whatever. The 'major leagues' or 'heavyweight class' is what all teams would strive for but they could compete and get experience in the lower classes until they are ready for the big leagues.

What do you think of this?

Raul


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And an Extreme League of their own...

Posted by Joe Johnson, Engineer on team #47, Chief Delphi, from Pontiac Central High School and Delphi Automotive Systems.

Posted on 4/12/99 7:51 PM MST


In Reply to: Re: Implementation Suggestion posted by Raul on 4/11/99 9:44 PM MST:



The idea of multiple FIRST catagories is really going to get some folks all riled up. So, I am going to steer clear of that hornet's nest just now,

BUT...

The idea of various competition levels brings up my absolute FAVORITE idea, which is a FIRST Extreme League.

We're talking a Pro League with teams of full time engineers, high salaries, spills, chills and thrills.

This is the kind of thing that would spin off personalities that really would get on Oprah, Letterman and Leno.

As to drivers, I propose that only Ph.D's with a P.E. license be allowed to drive the robots. Sound reasonable to me ;-)

By the way, a competitive cycling team trying to win the Tour de France spends over $1M every year. I think a NASCAR team or a CART team spends closer to $5M.

If we can make the competition easy enough to understand and exciting enough to watch, I think that Cheerios & Dominos as well as Delphi & Visteon might consider funnelling some of their advertisement dollars toward the FIRST Extreme League.

Hey... It could happen.

Joe J.


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Can I be on your team? (EOM)

Posted by Chris, Coach on team #308, Walled Lake Monster, from Walled Lake Schools and TRW Automotive Electronics.

Posted on 4/13/99 7:25 AM MST


In Reply to: And an Extreme League of their own... posted by Joe Johnson on 4/12/99 7:51 PM MST:



: The idea of multiple FIRST catagories is really going to get some folks all riled up. So, I am going to steer clear of that hornet's nest just now,

: BUT...

: The idea of various competition levels brings up my absolute FAVORITE idea, which is a FIRST Extreme League.

: We're talking a Pro League with teams of full time engineers, high salaries, spills, chills and thrills.


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I remember that post...

Posted by Daniel, Student on team #192, Gunn Robotics Team, from Henry M Gunn Senior High School and NASA Ames.

Posted on 4/9/99 11:58 PM MST


In Reply to: Re: Yet another compromise posted by Chris on 4/9/99 9:51 AM MST:



Chris,

Not only do I remember that post, I also remember liking it! The only negative for that (that I can see) is the major headache it would cause FIRST. I'm not sure if it's possible on their end, they're busy enough as it is...

But don't get me wrong. If they're willing, I'm all for it!

-Daniel



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