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Unread 23-06-2002, 22:35
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You also have to wonder about the refs...

Posted by Brett R..

Student on team #201, Viste-Feds, from Rochester High School and Visteon Automotive Systems.

Posted on 3/29/2000 4:19 PM MST


In Reply to: #1 lifted #201 -- no call... posted by Joe Johnson on 3/28/2000 7:26 AM MST:



Are these people that go to all the regionals and ref?

or are they volunteers for that particular regional, and have they even _read_ the rules? (or team updates)

I think they should have a ref near the alliance stations so teams can talk to the ref about rule infractions the team sees but refs miss (their decision isn't final 'til the match is over).


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In defense of FIRST and their referees...

Posted by Nate Smith.

Other on team #66, GM Powertrain/Willow Run HS, from Eastern Michigan University and GM Powertrain.

Posted on 3/30/2000 8:27 AM MST


In Reply to: You also have to wonder about the refs... posted by Brett R. on 3/29/2000 4:19 PM MST:



: Are these people that go to all the regionals and ref?

: or are they volunteers for that particular regional, and have they even _read_ the rules? (or team updates)
From my experiences working on the crew at the Great Lakes Regional, I can defend FIRST and their referees a bit...the head referee is part of the travelling crew, and the other referees are specific to a given event(at least as far as I saw.) Before the event, the referees have meetings to discuss the rules, and are given a 'referee's book,' which outlines the rules that they need to know. The FIRST crew is rather small, and for them to have a travelling set of referees for all events(especially with some weekends having 3 regionals this year,) they would be more spread out than they already are. Because of this, while the referees may not always be perfect(but truthfully, in what sport are they?), I believe that FIRST is doing the best that they can under the circumstances.

: I think they should have a ref near the alliance stations so teams can talk to the ref about rule infractions the team sees but refs miss (their decision isn't final 'til the match is over).

Also, nowhere in the rules does it state that the decisions are not final until the end of the match. In fact, for some infractions(I don't have my rule book right in front of me, so I can't tell you which ones,) the rules specifically state that the call will be made at the time the action occurs. There are 4-6(don't remember exactly how many) referees at various positions on the field during the match, and if none of them see a violation of the rules, which I believe they are well aware of by the time the competition starts, then we will just have to live with that call. As for the comment of having a referee near the alliance station, the view that the teams may have may not always be the whole picture, and having a ref that always has to be listening to whatever the teams feel is an infraction of the rules(whether it actually is or not) would just distract them from their real job of watching the events taking place on the field, therefore perhaps causing them to miss more important calls.

While the two teams that were part of the alleged infraction of the rules have been quite vocal since Chicago, the voice of FIRST, most likely due to their busy schedule with the last two regionals, as well as preparing for the national competition, has been quite silent on these discussion forums in the past few weeks. I am not going to say whether I believe there was an infraction or not(that's not my call,) however, I just wanted to clear up some of the issues regarding how FIRST chooses and prepares their referees for the competitions.

Nate Smith

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Re: In defense of FIRST and their referees...

Posted by lucia Sevcik.

Other on team Leopards from Booker T. Washington sponsored by ExxonMobil.

Posted on 3/30/2000 7:16 PM MST


In Reply to: In defense of FIRST and their referees... posted by Nate Smith on 3/30/2000 8:27 AM MST:



: In reference to the referee debate. As Nate stated, the head referee is a staff person from FIRST. The remaining referees are volunteers that are recruited for each regional event. These volunteers who have take vacation time from a busy work schedule volunteer 3 days at the regional. Recruitment for volunteers to act as refs is done early. Each volunteer is given a rulebook and updates by FIRST. In addition to the 3 days these people give to this event they spend countless hours studying the rules and then meet with FIRST officials prior to the regional for additional training. The referees at the Lone Star Regional did a wonderful job and my hat is off to them since they had the courage to volunteer for this THANKLESS JOB!

Please take a moment of time before you make such HARSH judgements to reflect on the fact that these people take time away from their families and busy work schedules to volunteer. IF YOU DON'T HAVE REFEREES YOU CAN'T HAVE A COMPETITION! The next time you want to criticize the call of a referee...WHY DON'T YOU TAKE A MOMENT AND VOLUNTEER FOR THE POSITION AT THE NEXT REGIONAL. Lucia Sevcik, Regional Coordinator



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In defense of the Ref's

Posted by Danielle deCaussin.

Other on team #201, Visteon FEDS, from Rochester High School and Visteon.

Posted on 4/3/2000 3:26 PM MST


In Reply to: Re: In defense of FIRST and their referees... posted by lucia Sevcik on 3/30/2000 7:16 PM MST:



In defense of the ref's and on behalf of the former and current members of team #201:

I am a former member of the team and am appaulled that someone on our team would criticize the ref's. Without the ref's there would be no competition! They put in endless hours and long days to make it all happen. Obviously this team member doesn't understand that in competition things happen!!! The excitement of the game comes with the ups and downs that happen during matches. The ref's are well versed in the rules and should have never been questioned!


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Re: In defense of the Ref's

Posted by Erin.   [PICTURE: SAME | NEW | HELP]


Student on team #1, The Juggernauts, from Oakland Technical Center-Northeast Campus and 3-Dimensional Services.

Posted on 4/3/2000 7:37 PM MST


In Reply to: In defense of the Ref's posted by Danielle deCaussin on 4/3/2000 3:26 PM MST:



Danielle,
I am sad to see that a former member has to apologize for a current member, however, I commend you for caring so much. Those comments need to be controlled, but please, I don't think any of us want to make you feel like it is your obligation to apologize for them. We would rather hear your comments, I am sure you have great ones! I know personally my mouth runs away with me (I post these messages quite late) but I see no reason for some of these comments. Let the person learn on their own, don't worry about it. Just have some fun! -erin


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Re: #1 lifted #201 -- no call...

Posted by Mike McIntyre.   [PICTURE: SAME | NEW | HELP]


Coach on team #1, Juggernaut, from Oakland Technical Center Northeast and 3 Dimensional Services.

Posted on 4/2/2000 4:33 AM MST


In Reply to: #1 lifted #201 -- no call... posted by Joe Johnson on 3/28/2000 7:26 AM MST:



The refs were in a tough spot; Joe says:'Team #1 methodically lifted Team #201 off the bar.' Watch the films again, folks: Team#1 tried to push #201 off of the bar (as has happened to many other teams in many other matches) but we fell head over heels and landed on our face; the drivers were underneath #201 with their front wheels on the ground and their back wheels sticking straight up in the air! The maneauver they did was the maneauver they'd practiced repeatedly: open up the wrist and lift yourself up. The drivers were pleasantly surprised to see #201 lift right off of the bar! Did we purposely tip ourselves over so that we could knock them off the bar? No. Was it the driver's intent to get #201 off the bar? Certainly, but not by lifting. Should the refs have made us lie there quietly until the end of the match and not try to right ourselves? I think not. Either way, they had to make a judgement call. It's a thankless job being a ref and I feel that, overall, they've done a great job. If they had DQ'd us I would have disagreed but would have accepted it.


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Just playing the tape in my head

Posted by Joe Johnson.   [PICTURE: SAME | NEW | HELP]


Engineer on team #47, Chief Delphi, from Pontiac Central High School and Delphi Automotive Systems.

Posted on 4/2/2000 7:18 PM MST


In Reply to: Re: #1 lifted #201 -- no call... posted by Mike McIntyre on 4/2/2000 4:33 AM MST:



Mike & others,

I certainly have NOT looked at any tape. I was really only going by my memory of the events of the day.

In my mind, it looked like 3-D put their elbows on the ramp and their hands under #201 and then did a 'curl' that lifted them off the bar.

That was my brain's interpretation. What really when on, based on Mike McIntyre's account, is something quite different.

Based on what I know of the character of Mr. McIntyre, I trust his account over my brain.

So...

I still am looking for FIRST to clarify this issue.

One reason I put my account of the story of 3-D & Team #201 out in the public was that I know that there was some heated debate about it in the pits and in the crowd after the event.

So...

Again, I call on FIRST to make themselves clear on this issue.

Clarity is the best thing possible for all concerned. Make a ruling and stick to it.

My two cents.

Joe J.


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Re: Just playing the tape in my head

Posted by Brett R..

Student on team #201, Viste-Feds, from Rochester High School and Visteon Automotive Systems.

Posted on 4/2/2000 9:00 PM MST


In Reply to: Just playing the tape in my head posted by Joe Johnson on 4/2/2000 7:18 PM MST:



But how did you fall on your face in the first place? By trying to lift us.
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Back in the gray...

Posted by Mike McIntyre.   [PICTURE: SAME | NEW | HELP]


Coach on team #1, Juggernaut, from Oakland Technical Center Northeast and 3 Dimensional Services.

Posted on 4/2/2000 10:15 PM MST


In Reply to: Re: Just playing the tape in my head posted by Brett R. on 4/2/2000 9:00 PM MST:



: But how did you fall on your face in the first place? By trying to lift us.
My last comment on this matter: we were driving up the ramp to ram you, (as you do to others), with the hope that you would fall off or at least be swung out enough so that we could get up on the bar, too; when our arm hit your body we fell forward from the contact while trying to drive under you. You are welcome to your opinions, but that's all they are: they are not facts. I believe my coaches and drivers when they told me what their intentions were.



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In defense of #201

Posted by Danielle deCaussin.

Other on team #201, Visteon FEDS, from Rochester High School and Visteon.

Posted on 4/3/2000 3:37 PM MST


In Reply to: Back in the gray... posted by Mike McIntyre on 4/2/2000 10:15 PM MST:



I just wanted to make it known that the comments being posted from team #201 are not coming from a driver, or a coach. Everyone will have their take on what happened, but to point fingers and make accusations about the intention of other teams is wrong! The spirit of the competition is being lost. As a former member of the team I am really discouraged to see current member, stirring up bad feelings aimed towards the rest of his team. I hope those involved in this message board will understand. Apparently he needs to be reminded that FIRST is about making alliances,'coopertition' and having fun.


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