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Re: Con-Fused....

Posted by Mike Dubreuil.

Student on team #175, Buzz, from Enrico Fermi High School and UTC/Hamilton Sundstrand.

Posted on 7/14/2000 4:24 AM MST


In Reply to: Re: Con-Fused.... posted by Ken Patton on 7/11/2000 3:41 PM MST:



It makes it safer because you can't pull as much power out of the battery as possible. I think that could add a hazard into the game: melting electrical wires (although I'm not sure with the generous safety margin FIRST has in effect on gauge), leaking batteries, fire, stuff like that.
When I made reference to the frying of components I was talking about fuses in general, spefically those that protect Spikes or Victors. They could easilly fry under too high of a load (without fuses).

:
: Does it really make the system safer? Specifically how?

: It doesn't change the likelihood that you will fry something, other than the 60A fuse itself (and thats what its there for).

: As you say, you experienced a gain because you would not be dead in the water due to a 60 amp fuse blowing. Why would your 60 amp fuse tend to blow? My guess is because you were on the ragged edge in terms of motors being driven at one time, or gear ratios chosen for robot speed, or both. What would you say to teams that didn't use Joe's mod, but instead backed off on gear ratio a little and settled for less speed than you guys did? Do you think it was an equal playing field?

: The fact that people are doing this doesn't bother me as much as it surpises me. Its technically cheating isn't it?

: Ken

:
: : Well you have to look at the reasoning behind a rule like this: safety and so you don't fry anything. The only real gain we experienced was that if our 60 amp fuse blew we wouldn't be dead in the water. The circut would not allow any more than 60 amps. So, we did not receive a performance gain. In fact, if my memory serves me correctly we did not use the circut as 'the 60 amp fuse'. The 60 amper was still wired in but the circut would protect it.


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Re: Con-Fused....

Posted by Matt Leese.

Student on team #7 from Parkville High School and NASA, Black & Decker, AAI, Raytheon.

Posted on 7/10/2000 7:12 PM MST


In Reply to: Re: Con-Fused.... posted by Ken Patton on 7/10/2000 11:43 AM MST:



: I didn't realize that people were doing this. Rule C1 in update #2 is pretty explicit: '... circuit breakers, and fuse may not be tampered with, modified or adjusted in any way...' Figure 2.1 in the rulebook is pretty explicit too.

I think that rule refers to tampering or modifing the ACTUAL circuit breaker or fuse (i.e. taking the 60 amp fuse apart) but doesn't refer to how they are wired. I don't think FIRST could really have much of a problem with this as we are already wiring a 30 amp breakers inline between most things and the 60 amp fuse (at least my team did -- it was easiest to use the transmission blocks that FIRST provided...). The only thing that has changed is that they we'd then be running three 30 amp circuit breakers in parallel as a master breaker over all the others. I don't remember any particular rule banning anything like that (I don't have a rule book handy and don't feel like downloading it). If you can come up with anything else that wouldn't permit it, I'd be interested in knowing.

Matt Leese





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Figure 2.1 is clear

Posted by Ken Patton.   [PICTURE: SAME | NEW | HELP]


Engineer on team #65, The Huskie Brigade, from Pontiac Northern High School and GM Powertrain.

Posted on 7/11/2000 3:27 PM MST


In Reply to: Re: Con-Fused.... posted by Matt Leese on 7/10/2000 7:12 PM MST:




As I said in my post, Figure 2.1 is pretty explicit. It, along with the wording in the rules and updates, doesn't leave any room for changes.

Ken



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Re: Figure 2.1 -absolute or example?

Posted by Nate Smith.

Other on team #66, GM Powertrain/Willow Run HS, from Eastern Michigan University and GM Powertrain.

Posted on 7/16/2000 3:09 PM MST


In Reply to: Figure 2.1 is clear posted by Ken Patton on 7/11/2000 3:27 PM MST:



: As I said in my post, Figure 2.1 is pretty explicit. It, along with the wording in the rules and updates, doesn't leave any room for changes.

My understanding of Figure 2.1 in the rules is that is was an example of how things could be wired. After all, it was not required that a separate panel be used for distributing ground, nor were the panels required at all(the breakers could be wired directly inline[with spade connectors for example].) So, the fact that a 3x30 breaker setup inline between the power distribution panels and 60A fuse is not shown in the diagram would not appear to be grounds for it not being able to be used.

Also, when looking over the rules, the only ones I can find regarding the use of the breakers is that they must be used with certain motors. There appears to be nothing saying that they may not be used in other cases, such as the 3x30 combination...

Just my 2 cents..

Nate


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absolute

Posted by Ken Patton.   [PICTURE: SAME | NEW | HELP]


Engineer on team #65, The Huskie Brigade, from Pontiac Northern High School and GM Powertrain.

Posted on 7/17/2000 10:26 AM MST


In Reply to: Re: Figure 2.1 -absolute or example? posted by Nate Smith on 7/16/2000 3:09 PM MST:



Nate-

I don't see anywhere where it says Figure 2.1 is an 'example' as you suggest. Figure 2.1 says that the grounds are on a different fuse panel. In section 2.1 the manual says 'Teams will be required to correct wiring that is not configured according to this section...' In rule C1 it lists a number of exceptions to control system wiring, and it doesn't mention creative usage of the circuit breakers.

If I was a judge (and I'm not), I'd say rewire it, unless FIRST clarified the rules.

Ken



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Re: 3X30 < 1X60?

Posted by Mike Dubreuil.

Student on team #175, Buzz, from Enrico Fermi High School and UTC/Hamilton Sundstrand.

Posted on 7/9/2000 9:16 AM MST


In Reply to: 3X30 posted by Joe Johnson on 7/5/2000 3:02 PM MST:



If any of you have been following Buzz you would know that in the begining we would blow the 60 amp fuse constantly (almost every match). This of course results in a catastrophic failure and leaves your alliance to fend for themselves (totally unacceptable). If my memory serves me correctly altogether Buzz has 11 motors on it. We checked and rechecked each motor and could not find anything wrong with our system.
Luckilly, Dr. Joe showed us his neat trick. We used resetable fuses in ours so it had to be approved by FIRST, luckily it did. From that point on, Buzz became a reliable robot. Sure, probably about twice each match Buzz would faulter but the next second everything was back online.


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Wire GA

Posted by Adam Krajewski.

Student on team #68, Truck Town Terror, from Walled Lake Central High School and General Motors Truck Group.

Posted on 7/14/2000 12:19 PM MST


In Reply to: 3X30 posted by Joe Johnson on 7/5/2000 3:02 PM MST:



Dr. Joe, which gauge wire did you use to wire the 3 30 Amp fuses together? 6 GA or 10 GA?

Adam


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6 GA

Posted by Joe Johnson.&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;[PICTURE: SAME | NEW | HELP]


Engineer on team #47, Chief Delphi, from Pontiac Central High School and Delphi Automotive Systems.

Posted on 7/14/2000 2:39 PM MST


In Reply to: Wire GA posted by Adam Krajewski on 7/14/2000 12:19 PM MST:



6 Gauge wire -- it is carrying a lot of current.

Joe J.


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Connections

Posted by Dodd Stacy.

Engineer on team #95, Lebanon Robotics Team, from Lebanon High School and CRREL/CREARE.

Posted on 7/14/2000 4:55 PM MST


In Reply to: 6 GA posted by Joe Johnson on 7/14/2000 2:39 PM MST:



Another dumb gearhead question. Is it really better, safer (lower resistance) to make crimp fitting connections on very heavy gauge wire - like 6 Gauge - than to make proper solder (or silver soldered) joints? I'm appalled to see the 6 Gauge battery wire connections (after they loosen up from many cycles of make and break) and think that they are carrying maybe 100 amps. In fact, a lot of the FIRST rule motor connections worry me in this regard. Give me a nice hefty chain and sprocket set, thank you very much.

Dodd

: 6 Gauge wire -- it is carrying a lot of current.

: Joe J.


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Re: Connections

Posted by Michael Betts.

Engineer on team #177, Bobcat Robotics, from South Windsor High School and International Fuel Cells.

Posted on 7/15/2000 11:39 AM MST


In Reply to: Connections posted by Dodd Stacy on 7/14/2000 4:55 PM MST:



: Another dumb gearhead question. Is it really better, safer (lower resistance) to make crimp fitting connections on very heavy gauge wire - like 6 Gauge - than to make proper solder (or silver soldered) joints?

A 'proper' crimp is better than solder. PbSn solder cannot hold up to the physical stress and strain to which a large gauge wire is normally subjected to and silver solder has it's own set of problems, such as acid flux, making it unsuitable. In a 'proper' crimp connection, the wires actually cold flow within the crimp. Production, high reliability crimps are actually made with an pneumatic or hydraulic tool or press. Such a tool can exert pressures of over 15 tons on the crimp. At the high school, a manual crimp tool is often used.

The problem is that each connector has it's own crimp tool, unique to the manufacturer and model, which are expensive and long lead items.

To crimp 6 AWG wire, we use an old, manual, T&amp;B crimp tool (2 to 8 AWG) which was 'donated' by IFC to the school. This old crimp tool we use has 20' handles and we add sheet metal shims (outside of the crimp lug) until it is 'almost' impossible for one person to crimp. In fact, when crimps are being made by some of my younger and/or female team members (I'm not being sexist here... it is a matter of upper body strength), I will slide a couple of 30' sched 40 pipes over the handles to improve the mechanical advantage.

Look up Team 177 at one of our future events and I'll have the kids demonstrate how we do it. We plan to be at Rumble, Riverrage, Bash and the Expo in the next few months.

A proper crimp is one of the strongest 'links' in your electrical chain and will NOT fail or loosen. You will rip the electrical terminal off of the lead acid battery long before the crimp fails (voice of experience here...).

Talk to an electrician in your facilities dept (school or company) and they can probably let you borrow (or have) an old tool.

Having said all that, the only crimp connection which I have the students routinely replace with solder is at the connections on the FP motors. These are meant for toys and, obviously, do not enjoy the quality inspections or standards that the automotive components in our kit do.

Remember to strain relief whenever a solder connection is used!


Good luck.

Mike



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Re: Connections

Posted by Justin Stiltner.

Student on team #388, Epsilon, from Grundy High School and NASA, American Electric Power, Town of Grundy.

Posted on 7/15/2000 11:09 PM MST


In Reply to: Re: Connections posted by Michael Betts on 7/15/2000 11:39 AM MST:



I totally agree with what you said... our 'machinist' rebuilds mining equipment for a living so he has some pretty beefy tools 'the wire on a normal peice of equipment carries about 480 volts at about 300 amps so he knows about working with big wire, the crimpers we used on the 6ga. wire had 3 foot handels and was a slide type 'it looked more like a vice than a pair of pliers' and would make the finished crimp into the shape of a U when completed. We also put heat shrink tubeing on all of the crimp joints. You can never be too safe. At one time I considered running some of the wire in conduit... hehe lol

Also could Some one Possabley post a pic of the housing they used for the 3 breakers and they'r associated wireing? Or give a few hints as to how they housed it?

Justin Stiltner
Team #388
Epsilon
Grundy Va,



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Re: Connections

Posted by Dodd Stacy.

Engineer on team #95, Lebanon Robotics Team, from Lebanon High School and CRREL/CREARE.

Posted on 7/18/2000 7:28 AM MST


In Reply to: Re: Connections posted by Michael Betts on 7/15/2000 11:39 AM MST:



Thanks, Mike and Justin. I guess there's no substitute for the proper tool, or at least one capable of adequately high crimp pressures (and constraining the fitting so it doesn't just flatten). We will need to pay closer attention to tools and technique in the future. I will definitely stop by team 177's pits at River Rage for a looksee and a lesson. Thanks, again.

Dodd

: A 'proper' crimp is better than solder. PbSn solder cannot hold up to the physical stress and strain to which a large gauge wire is normally subjected to and silver solder has it's own set of problems, such as acid flux, making it unsuitable. In a 'proper' crimp connection, the wires actually cold flow within the crimp. Production, high reliability crimps are actually made with an pneumatic or hydraulic tool or press. Such a tool can exert pressures of over 15 tons on the crimp. At the high school, a manual crimp tool is often used.

: The problem is that each connector has it's own crimp tool, unique to the manufacturer and model, which are expensive and long lead items.

: To crimp 6 AWG wire, we use an old, manual, T&amp;B crimp tool (2 to 8 AWG) which was 'donated' by IFC to the school. This old crimp tool we use has 20' handles and we add sheet metal shims (outside of the crimp lug) until it is 'almost' impossible for one person to crimp. In fact, when crimps are being made by some of my younger and/or female team members (I'm not being sexist here... it is a matter of upper body strength), I will slide a couple of 30' sched 40 pipes over the handles to improve the mechanical advantage.

: Look up Team 177 at one of our future events and I'll have the kids demonstrate how we do it. We plan to be at Rumble, Riverrage, Bash and the Expo in the next few months.

: A proper crimp is one of the strongest 'links' in your electrical chain and will NOT fail or loosen. You will rip the electrical terminal off of the lead acid battery long before the crimp fails (voice of experience here...).

: Talk to an electrician in your facilities dept (school or company) and they can probably let you borrow (or have) an old tool.

: Having said all that, the only crimp connection which I have the students routinely replace with solder is at the connections on the FP motors. These are meant for toys and, obviously, do not enjoy the quality inspections or standards that the automotive components in our kit do.

: Remember to strain relief whenever a solder connection is used!

:
: Good luck.

: Mike





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Re: 60 amp fuse problems...

Posted by Thomas A. Frank.

Engineer on team #121, The Islanders/Rhode Warrior, from Middletown (RI) High School and Naval Undersea Warfare Center.

Posted on 7/19/2000 1:24 PM MST


In Reply to: Re: 60 amp fuse problems... posted by James Jones on 7/5/2000 11:19 AM MST:



: Anecdotaly (sp?) I think the fuses degrade with severe use over time


Hello All;

That is a correct belief. Fuses have a definite 'lifespan'. Even when operated below their rated limit, the link heats up slightly, and over time begins to crystalize. Eventually, it fails, sometimes well below the rated value. If you have a fuse blow in your home electrical panel, and it isn't from an overload, buy a box of spares because the rest will likely be going in the not to distant future (actually, consider replacing the panel with circuit breakers, but I digress).

If you operate a fuse above it's rated current (in this case 60 amps), this process will accelerate substantially. We reached the point at the NJ regional where the fuse would only last 2 rounds, even though we were still 'on the curve'. We replaced the fuse every round, and regeared for the Nationals.


Perhaps with a little luck, next year we will get a circuit breaker instead of the 60 amp fuse. Much easier to turn the machine on and off, and not subject to the deterioration problems that fuses are (at least, not in the timeframe we work in...).

Tom Frank


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Do you have a breaker in mind?

Posted by Joe Johnson.&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;[PICTURE: SAME | NEW | HELP]


Engineer on team #47, Chief Delphi, from Pontiac Central High School and Delphi Automotive Systems.

Posted on 7/19/2000 2:14 PM MST


In Reply to: Re: 60 amp fuse problems... posted by Thomas A. Frank on 7/19/2000 1:24 PM MST:



Tom,

It is my experience that if you find an exact make and model for a part you want in the kit the chances of getting the item in the kit is greatly increased.

If you then go the next step and buy one and ship it to Eric or Frank at FIRST, the odds increase even more.

The only thing beyond that is to contact the supplier and get them to donate the parts. In this case you have the best chances you can get.

SO...

...if you want a circuit breaker in 2001, you know what to do.

Joe J.


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Re: Do you have a breaker in mind?

Posted by Mike Carron.

Engineer on team #343, Oconee's 2000 Crew, from Hamilton Career Center and Nasa/Square D Company.

Posted on 7/29/2000 11:36 AM MST


In Reply to: Do you have a breaker in mind? posted by Joe Johnson on 7/19/2000 2:14 PM MST:



: To whom it might concern,
I am an Engineer on team #343 who works for Square D company. We are currently trying to donate a breaker to replace the 60A fuse. This will allow for a 'disconnecting' means (not pulling the fuse out) and also provide more consistant protection for the motor loads. The only issue with breakers however, is that they tend to trip with electrical pressure (amperage or short circuit pressure). This means that an impact onto a breaker mechanincally can cause it to trip. The breaker is basically the same size as the fuse used this year and allows for wires to be terminated via a screw type lug (rated for #6 wire, actually #4). Several teams are testing this breaker as we speak as well as my team#343. Hopefully we'll have some good news for next year.
Later,
Mike Carron
SR. Applications Engineer
Square D Company
Seneca,SC.

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