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Admissions Process for becoming a team member??

Posted by Angela "Fish" Hall at 04/24/2001 7:34 PM EST


Student on team #180, SPAM Robotics, from Martin County High School and UTC/Pratt&Whitney .



For next year our team came up with an original idea: make it so that you have to fill out an application form and "try-out" to be on our team. Yes, it sounds cruel, but it really isn't. Everyone will make it. We're simply doing it to see which new members will be helpful right off the bat in terms of programing or animations knowledge and those who will be most committed. What do you all think of this idea? Just a quick yes or no is ok, but I know I'll get more than that. Thanks for the input!


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Re: Admissions Process for becoming a team member??

Posted by William Swanson at 04/24/2001 7:47 PM EST


Coach on team #353, POBOTS, from Mattlin Middle School.


In Reply to: Admissions Process for becoming a team member??
Posted by Angela on 04/24/2001 7:34 PM EST:



We are also trying to figure out an application process for next year. We may have students write essays on why they want to be a part of it. We are also going to put an attendance clause in place to determine who goes to the regionals and the nats. We had some students who did not show up, but wanted the goodies. We are also talking about an exit essay at the end of year to see what each member liked or disliked about the program. I think it will be very interesting.
Even our veterans will be expected to do this. I would be interested to see your application form.
Thanks.


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Re: Admissions Process for becoming a team member??

Posted by Mike Soukup at 04/24/2001 8:26 PM EST


Engineer on team #111, Wildstang, from Rolling Meadows & Wheeling and Motorola.


In Reply to: Admissions Process for becoming a team member??
Posted by Angela on 04/24/2001 7:34 PM EST:



Wildstang doesn't have an application process, we take everyone, which is why we're such a big team. But we keep track of students' attendence, participation, and contribution, and use those in the decision of who goes to competitions. I personally view the competitions (especially Nats) as a reward for a student's hard work, so I wouldn't recommend anyone to go that didn't make a significant contribution to my sub-team. Fortunately I had a great group of students and all 3 were given the option to go to all the competitions.

I'm still on the fence when it comes to an application process. It's a good idea because it cuts out students who wouldn't put forth an effort on the team. But it may mean that you cut a student who could really benefit from the program. Tough decision that I'm sure every team has considered.

Mike
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Re: Admissions Process for becoming a team member??

Posted by Tom S. at 04/24/2001 8:27 PM EST


Student on team #177, The Bobcats, from South Windsor High School and International Fuel Cells.


In Reply to: Admissions Process for becoming a team member??
Posted by Angela on 04/24/2001 7:34 PM EST:



We've been informally doing this for a couple of years, and to me the data we've recieved out of this can sometimes be innacurate. Some students who write down very little or seem to not have any defined skills end up doing tons of great work. Never understimate the power of getting addicted to FIRST...

In short, i have seen some teams successfully work the 'tryout' process, but our team has always accepted anyone who wants to join, and even though we had 'tryouts' everyone still made it. And the data we recieved from teh tryouts usually didn't reflect the amount or quality of work done during the FIRST season.

Just my thoughts on the issue.

Tom Schindler
Team 177

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Re: Admissions Process for becoming a team member??

Posted by Michael Betts at 04/25/2001 8:33 AM EST


Engineer on team #177, Bobcat Robotics, from South Windsor High School and International Fuel Cells.


In Reply to: Re: Admissions Process for becoming a team member??
Posted by Tom S. on 04/24/2001 8:27 PM EST:



Angela, Tom, et al,

Actually, Tom's statement is slightly inaccurate. In the past, we have had to cut certain team wannabes. It is not something we enjoy doing and we try not to do it unless absolutely mecessary as it almost always results in feelings of bitterness, betrayal, etc.

In total, however, Tom's other observations are absolutely on the mark. No short term tryout process can accurately predict future performance. A team member who is a non-producer or disruptive influence in one year can be your greatest asset in the next.

Unfortunately, there is no "best" way to handle this issue. All we can do is try to be fair to all concerned.

Mike


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Re: Admissions Process for becoming a team member??

Posted by Chris Orimoto at 04/24/2001 9:46 PM EST


Student on team #368, Kika Mana, from McKinley High School and Nasa Ames/Hawaiian Electric/Weinberg Foundation.


In Reply to: Admissions Process for becoming a team member??
Posted by Angela on 04/24/2001 7:34 PM EST:



Like some others, our team also has no REAL admission policy. There are no formal applications...just an informative meeting which is open to everyone. However, we do have "cuts" (which are completely OUT of my control) for people who just don't "pull their weight". That's basically how our team runs.

As for my own personal opinion, I believe your idea to be good. Applications is one way to tell who is actually willing to commit to the team. I also believe in keeping as many people as possible, but allowing only the MOST committed people to participate at competitions. This is one instance where I feel that a student leader is important...one who will keep the high school students up to par as a peer, rather than an authoritarian. All in all though...anyone who wants to should be given the opportunity to share the FIRST experience. It's just up to the students how much they want to get out of it.

Just my personal thoughts...

Chris, #368
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Re: Admissions Process for becoming a team member??

Posted by Matt Leese at 04/24/2001 10:01 PM EST


College Student on team #73, Tigerbolt, from Edison Technical HS and Alstom & Fiber Technologies & RIT.


In Reply to: Admissions Process for becoming a team member??
Posted by Angela on 04/24/2001 7:34 PM EST:



When I was on team 7, I remember they tried to make
applications and tryouts at least once. The tryouts
were banned by the school (had to do with our status
as a club in the school -- we were not allowed to
turn anyone away from the club in general but we
could decide who traveled). As for applications, I
specifically remember boycotting them. It could've
been the format that they were in but I didn't
appreciate having to apply after being on the team
for two years. I think basically what I'm saying is
that while applications seem like a good idea in
theory, getting them to work is another thing
entirely. And it can also discourage some students
from joining who otherwise would. However,
collecting information on students is a good idea as
it can give you a good idea of how to best divide the
team.

Matt who wants to at least get info such as this from
his students next year...

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Re: Admissions Process for becoming a team member??

Posted by Matt Sorgenfrei at 04/24/2001 10:19 PM EST


Student on team #192, Gunn Robotics Team, from Gunn High School and Nokia.


In Reply to: Admissions Process for becoming a team member??
Posted by Angela on 04/24/2001 7:34 PM EST:



At the Gunn Robotics Team we have used an application process for a while. Students are required to fill out an application that always includes some wacky question like
"If you were stuck on a desert island with only a traffic cone, a moustrap, and a box of wheaties, how you shelter yourself from the elements?"
This proves to be a really good way to filter out the people who have no idea what they are doing or are uninteresting. We have come to find the applications a neccessity for building our stellar team.
Matt Sorgenfrei


:For next year our team came up with an original idea: make it so that you have to fill out an application form and "try-out" to be on our team. Yes, it sounds cruel, but it really isn't. Everyone will make it. We're simply doing it to see which new members will be helpful right off the bat in terms of programing or animations knowledge and those who will be most committed. What do you all think of this idea? Just a quick yes or no is ok, but I know I'll get more than that. Thanks for the input!


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Re: Admissions Process for becoming a team member??

Posted by Mimi Brown at 04/24/2001 11:05 PM EST


Student on team #128, The Botcats, from Grandview Heights High School.


In Reply to: Admissions Process for becoming a team member??
Posted by Angela on 04/24/2001 7:34 PM EST:



We are doing the application thing too. Our school is small, and we need to have team members that will be comitted. Hopefully this will help us determine who would be a hard worker, especially with the new underclassmen.



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Re: Admissions Process for becoming a team member??

Posted by Jessica Boucher at 04/25/2001 6:40 AM EST


Student on team #237, Sie-H2O-Bots, from Watertown High School and Eastern Awning Systems & The Siemon Company.


In Reply to: Admissions Process for becoming a team member??
Posted by Angela on 04/24/2001 7:34 PM EST:



We use applications for new members, though I do agree with Tom that half the time, the info concerning skills & experience is inaccurate. I think the applications are great for getting crucial information off the bat about new members, so you dont have to chase them down later (ex. phone #, email, parents names/occupations, previously taken courses, class schedule).

Returning members send in a letter of intent, recounting their past accomplishments with the team, and what they would like to do in the upcoming year.

-Jessica B, #237


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it's pretty important decision

Posted by Ken Leung at 04/25/2001 7:28 AM EST


College Student on team #192, Gunn Robotics Team, from Henry M. Gunn Senior High School.


In Reply to: Admissions Process for becoming a team member??
Posted by Angela on 04/24/2001 7:34 PM EST:



There are different types of teams out there recruiting members, and it really depends on the status of the team, as well as the source of new-comers to see if this method really fit them...

Usually, this method works most effectively when the team have decent amount of reputation at their school/community that the people actually want to join the team, up to the extend that there aren't enough room on the team for everyone. By reading the application and testing the people, the team should be able to filter out the kind of members they want.

However, this method might be a bit too harsh for the people because they weren't given the chance to learn enough to help them pass the "try-out", even though they could be a fast learner. The result of "try-out" might not represent the student's ability completely...

Also, a variety of new-comers is good for any team, so if the "try-out" only test one aspect of the competition, then the group of winners probably do not satisfy the demand of the team.

At the same time, you don't want the test to be too hard, or too much for the new-comers... The frustration will not likely to attract more people. Over-analyzing or over-designing of the "try-out" will be unnecessary work for the team, while it could've concentrate on other areas.

So what do I think about this method? I think it's a pretty good method. But a few word of advice:

The team should promote themselves to the new-comers so there are actually enthusiasms in joining the team. Not only will this give you a larger amount of applicants, but also the idea that the team need a wide range of members can be pass onto the crowd.

When designing the application and "try-out", make sure you are making the applicants show what you really want to see. A "try-out" consists of 12-page test of mechanical engineering will not likely to tell you much about how well the student. Keep it simple, interesting, and effective. Think about what you want in a student, and make the "try-out" FUN for the applicants.

Finally, encourage the applicants at the "try-out". Chances are, this is their first time doing this. Even though they might not win, your encouragement will likely to inspire them no matter what. At least you want to make sure they are not discouraged after this.

¡K

It is really important that teams do this right at the beginning, because the people recruited will be working with the team the rest of the year, and every one of them will have the capability of effecting the performance of the entire team.


By the way, I finally finish recoving from the competition... I am back with my long posting again...
And the excessive usage of "..." ...


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Like getting a job

Posted by Chris Hibner at 04/25/2001 8:22 AM EST


Coach on team #308, Walled Lake Monster, from Walled Lake Schools and TRW Automotive Electronics.


In Reply to: Admissions Process for becoming a team member??
Posted by Angela on 04/24/2001 7:34 PM EST:



Our team doesn't have the money to take everyone that wants to be on the team so we have to limit it to about 25 students. This means that we have to have some sort of screening process.

We try to give our students as much of a taste of the real world as possible. Thus, the process for joining our team is like getting a job at a company. We make students fill out an application with questions such as, "Why do you want to join the team?" and "What would you bring to the team that is valuable?" as well as other, more straightforward questions. We also ask a question that shows if they are willing to put forth some effort (typically it requires a small amount research at the library or on the internet so they have a few days to turn in the answer.)

After the application process, we interview every applicant (just like job interviews). The interview consists of a few adult types (engineers and teachers) interviewing the students one at a time (just like in the real world). We don't judge people based on their interviewing skills, but it helps us get an idea of who would benefit from the program but didn't have a good application.

After the interviews, all of the adults on the team sit down and sort through the applications and interview notes and pick a team. The process can be a little long, but we think it does a good job of selecting a team as well as giving the students some experience of what the real world is like.

(As a side note, once the team is chosen, we also have attendence and performance requirements for going to the competitions.)

-Chris


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Cool Oakland County Advantage

Posted by Erin at 04/25/2001 10:18 AM EST


College Student on team #65, Huskie Brigade, from Pontiac Northern High School and GM Powertrain.


In Reply to: Admissions Process for becoming a team member??
Posted by Angela on 04/24/2001 7:34 PM EST:



If you're lucky enough to live in what Ken Patton refers to as the "c.g." of FIRST (and it truly is), then you have a few ways to look at admissions.

On my old team, the students had to prove themselves for a full semester before being fully taken on as a member. It was a hard process, you had to show up for meetings and stay the whole time, just like class. This however did not go unrewarded, as they gave a full credit to students for participating.

My current team has quite a rigorus application process from what I understand: some students who are on the team this year tried last year but didn't make the time restriction or the cut, etc. You have to have an outstanding application and turn it in on time to be accepted and then keep eligibility on the team by keeping high standards to other students and keeping your grades up. Just a profile on some of the students we have: the other night when our team was recognized with the other pontiac teams at the board meeting, our high school's student council (best in state) was recognized for their accomplishments, and when they were called up, many members from our team went up because they were members of this awesome student council.

The advantage of OCCRA

I believe OCCRA is not only a fun game to play and a powerful tool in teaching hands on engineering, but a powerful tool in deciding who should be on the team as well. As these are mini-competitions, students must conduct themselves in a manner much like how they would on a FIRST team- be responsible, show up for meetings, help, etc. and this gives teams participating an upper hand by helping them notice the strengths and weaknesses of students in a real-live FIRST-type situation. This helps for early and proper analysis of students.

Just some info I felt like sharing.

Erin


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Re: Admissions Process for becoming a team member??

Posted by Lee at 04/25/2001 12:15 PM EST


Engineer on team #343, Metal In Motion, from Hamilton Career Center.


In Reply to: Admissions Process for becoming a team member??
Posted by Angela on 04/24/2001 7:34 PM EST:



On our team everyone is welcome and invited to become a member. However, to attend competitions, students have to invest a minimum of 75 hours on the project AND keep up their grades.

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Re: Admissions Process for becoming a team member??

Posted by ChrisH at 04/25/2001 1:27 PM EST


Engineer on team #330, Beach 'Bots, from Hope Chapel Academy and NASA JPL, J & F Machine, Raytheon, et al.


In Reply to: Admissions Process for becoming a team member??
Posted by Angela on 04/24/2001 7:34 PM EST:



The process we use depends on the student/engineer ratio. We like to have no more than 3-4 students per technical person.

Everybody, including the engineers, fills out a simple application. Mostly it's contact information, and for returning people it's pretty much a formality. Unless you caused some kind of problem last year. While that won't necessarily keep you off the team, (we do recognize that people ,especially high school students, mature with time) you might have to explain how and why this year will be different.

If there are enough technical people to maintain the ratio, then everybody who applies gets in. If not it may depend as much on your parent's attitude as it does on yours.

We are a small team from a small school that is run by the parents. Consequently we require ALOT of parental involvement. The biggest goal of our application process is to communicate just what kind of commitment the FAMILY is getting into.

One requirement is that each family provide one parent to either work on a fundraising project or provide technical support. So if your parent is unable to make that commitment, we might not have you on our team. Though I don't know of anybody who has been turned away for that reason. After all, our parents are pretty involved in the school anyway.

Because this is a family operation, we take eigth-graders as junior members on a space available basis. While they help with building and fundraising, their travel expenses are not covered by the team. Though they are welcome to come with us if they pay their way, they must also bring their own chaperone.

It is this family commitment that results in our cheering section having people ranging from grandparents to very small children.

Chris Husmann, PE
Team 330 the Beach'Bots


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