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FIRST can't necessarily do whatever Dean wants

Posted by Chris Hibner at 04/30/2001 9:59 AM EST


Coach on team #308, Walled Lake Monster, from Walled Lake Schools and TRW Automotive Electronics.


In Reply to: Re: Gael Force Defensive?
Posted by Lily Milford on 04/28/2001 6:33 PM EST:



FIRST (along with Dean and Woodie) obviously have the last say on what happens, but we as the teams are the customers of FIRST. If enough of us decide we don't want to play anymore, FIRST has to respond or they won't have an organization. It would be a pretty boring competition to see Dean play Woodie in a best 2 out of 3 for the national championship.
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Who is actually going to carry out this threat?

Posted by Kevin Sevcik at 04/30/2001 10:51 PM EST


College Student on team #57, Leopards, from BT Washington and the High School for Engineering Professions and Exxon, Kellog Brown & Root, Powell Electrical.


In Reply to: FIRST can't necessarily do whatever Dean wants
Posted by Chris Hibner on 04/30/2001 9:59 AM EST:



I'm just curious as to who would actually carry this threat out. You aren't going to know a thing about the competition till January. After you've registered and after you've commited a lot of sponsors' time and money. So when you find out the game is still 4v0, what are you going to do? Not play at all that year? That wouldn't make the sponsors very happy... Quit the next year? I suppose that'd work, but what would you do besides FIRST? Frankly, I'm doubting that there are that many teams that would actually carry through with this threat....
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Us

Posted by Chris Hibner at 05/01/2001 8:30 AM EST


Coach on team #308, Walled Lake Monster, from Walled Lake Schools and TRW Automotive Electronics.


In Reply to: Who is actually going to carry out this threat?
Posted by Kevin Sevcik on 04/30/2001 10:51 PM EST:



Our team has voted that if FIRST does 4v0 next year, we are going to do something else. We haven't decided what we're doing yet, but it'll probably be Robotica. We'll stick it out next year since we won't know what the game is until after we pay our money, but after that, we're gone.

I've also discussed this with a number of other teams that feel the same way. I don't know how serious they were, but I'm sure enough of them are to make FIRST worried if they start to leave.


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Maybe me too.

Posted by Joe Johnson at 05/01/2001 8:59 AM EST


Engineer on team #47, Chief Delphi, from Pontiac Central High School and Delphi Automotive Systems.


In Reply to: Us
Posted by Chris Hibner on 05/01/2001 8:30 AM EST:



I have some very serious thinking to do before I cross that bridge, but for the first time in 6 years, I believe that there may be a serious enough disagreement between my vision of the future of FIRST and that of those who call the shots at FIRST that I can even IMAGINE that I would not be involved with a team next year.

Tough decisions lay ahead.

Joe J.

P.S. In this case, I don't speak for all of Chief Delphi, just for me.
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Competing Organization?

Posted by Matt Leese at 05/01/2001 12:01 PM EST


College Student on team #73, Tigerbolt, from Edison Technical HS and Alstom & Fiber Technologies & RIT.


In Reply to: Maybe me too.
Posted by Joe Johnson on 05/01/2001 8:59 AM EST:



As a hypothetical situation: FIRST gets so bad large
numbers of people are ready to leave. Would it be in
our best interest than to start a rival organization?
I think that would tend to tear the community apart
and may permanently damage FIRST. But would that be
worth the damage?

Matt who prefers not thinking this way but has
unfortunately done so for a good part of this year....

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It has been done before . . . I think

Posted by Joe Ross at 05/01/2001 12:34 PM EST


College Student on team #330, Beach Bot, from Hope Chapel Academy and NASA/JPL , J&F Machine, and Raytheon.


In Reply to: Competing Organization?
Posted by Matt Leese on 05/01/2001 12:01 PM EST:



If I remember correctly, I read that BEST was started because FIRST was getting too commercialized. I know that there are several Texas area teams that do both competitions. (link to BEST site below)

I'm also not sure what relationship Canada FIRST has with FIRST.

In other words, perhaps a new rival organization wouldn't be necessary. I also tend to think that the new organization would fail quickly if it didn't have someone like Dean to run it.

I also think that Dean and Woodie aren't stupid enough to totally ruin the competition, though they may drive a few teams and people away.


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Re: It has been done before . . . I think

Posted by lucia Sevcik at 05/01/2001 8:07 PM EST


Other on team Leopards from Booker T. Washington sponsored by ExxonMobil.


In Reply to: It has been done before . . . I think
Posted by Joe Ross on 05/01/2001 12:34 PM EST:



Re: The BEST competition and FIRST competition. BEST was formed not because the founders of BEST thought that FIRST was becoming too commercialized but rather that to have a robotics competition that would be more affordable for teams. BEST is a good precusor for FIRST but does not offer the higher level of challenges that FIRST does. For example: you build a 24 lb. robot that fits into a 2 ft cube. You only have 4 globe motors to work with and a airplane radio controller. BEST is organized by a total volunteer organization that develops the game, does the administrative work etc. BEST has its share of problems and issues too.

I organize the regional for BEST and FIRST. They are both good competitions but definitely different.


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Re: FIRST is too inefficient (slightly off topic)

Posted by Dan at 05/02/2001 2:19 AM EST


Other on team - from Carnegie Mellon sponsored by -.


In Reply to: Re: It has been done before . . . I think
Posted by lucia Sevcik on 05/01/2001 8:07 PM EST:



Not to undermine your opinion, you surely know way more than me about BEST. I don't think the weight, # of motors, or complexity of the robot is directly proportional to how effective or inspirational program is. It may be less educational but this isn't a stated priority for FIRST.
Personally, I think that FIRST is too "inefficient" at its task. Too many resources are wasted by the teams on travel, uniforms, and nitpicky little rules rather than concentrating on inspiring students and giving them confidence. I think this is the main cause of burnout too; it takes a whole lot of time, energy, and money to keep those gears moving. I think I'd prefer more intimate and student oriented programs like BEST if I had to do it again.
The most inspiring, most important project of my life was my freshman year machine project. The only materials used were cardboard, rubber bands, and mouse traps.
I love FIRST and I understand a lot of my views are contrary to its direction; but I think there's a lot of very unnecessary clutter that should be eliminated.
I think FIRST needs to hold one of those meetings with the coaches very soon, this place is like a pressure cooker....
Dan


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inefficient? pressure cooker????

Posted by Jason Morrella at 05/02/2001 5:09 AM EST


Coach on team #254, Cheesy Poofs, from Bellarmine College Prep & others and NASA Ames/Cypress Semiconductor/Unity Care.


In Reply to: Re: FIRST is too inefficient (slightly off topic)
Posted by Dan on 05/02/2001 2:19 AM EST:



: I think FIRST needs to hold one of those meetings with the coaches very soon, this place is like a pressure cooker....
: Dan

Dan,

FIRST holds a team forum every summer to get the feedback from team leaders - and this summer will be no different (probably the 1st week in August). As happens EVERY year - many people have expressed their ideas & opinions on how to improve the game, and FIRST eagerly looks forward to getting that feedback.
However - having spoken to members (team leaders - adults & students) from almost 100 teams since Florida I can tell you nothing even resembling a "pressure cooker" situation exists.
Almost everyone (including myself) involved with FIRST teams have many suggestions, and constructive criticism, to improve things for next season. And yes, a few have strong displeasures they will voice at the forums. At the same time, the overwhelming majority of teams have expressed they once again had a great experience this year, love FIRST, are looking forward to next year, will adapt to whatever game is thrown at us, and are encouraging & recruiting other schools to start teams.
Also, I couldn't agree with you more that there are many great programs out there - many requiring different levels of committment, time, planning, resources, and funding - which is GREAT. That gives teams & schools a choice! Just because FIRST has a different (and VERY successful) model than some other program does not make it "inefficient" - it makes FIRST different and allows schools to choose the program right for them. If the traits which make up one program aren't right (or efficient) for a certain group, then they can choose the program better for their situation. Luckily, there are many different programs out there (like FIRST, FLL, BEST, or Botball to name a few) which benefit students. Regardless to the degree of impact they have, any is better than none. I hope they all continue to grow and do well.


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Re: inefficient? pressure cooker? (drama my friend ;)

Posted by Dan at 05/02/2001 2:03 PM EST


Other on team - from Carnegie Mellon sponsored by -.


In Reply to: inefficient? pressure cooker????
Posted by Jason Morrella on 05/02/2001 5:09 AM EST:



Agreed. Sorry for the dramatic exaggeration, but there is a pretty undprecedented degree of restlessness in this forum. And of course "inefficient" describes the perspective I got from my (now defunct) team but I think similar concerns have been voiced before.
Dan


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Re: Robotica

Posted by Dan at 05/01/2001 12:13 PM EST


Other on team - from Carnegie Mellon sponsored by -.


In Reply to: Us
Posted by Chris Hibner on 05/01/2001 8:30 AM EST:



That's very cool you want to do Robotica, I'd love to see a whole FIRST team kick some Ro-butt-ica. Just remember thousands of teams apply and only 24 or so actually get to compete. They said they'd love to have a FIRST team though, so maybe your odds aren't so bad. They're interested in your "story"--not your skill--so really go all out on the application.
The next season is probably going to film this summer.
Dan


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Re: Who is actually going to carry out this threat?

Posted by Matt Leese at 05/01/2001 11:58 AM EST


College Student on team #73, Tigerbolt, from Edison Technical HS and Alstom & Fiber Technologies & RIT.


In Reply to: Who is actually going to carry out this threat?
Posted by Kevin Sevcik on 04/30/2001 10:51 PM EST:



Personally I'm more concerned about students walking
away from the team because it just isn't all the
exciting. And that's going to be much more of a
problem for rookie teams (and I'd say us also as
we're back after a haitus). I know that we've had
students say that they found the SME Robotics
competition much more interesting. I know that we've
had teachers complain about how complicated and
unexciting the game has gotten (we'd be lost without
the teachers). I don't think you're going to have
the highly visible people walking away from FIRST
that easily, but it's going to be the very people
we're trying to get interested in it that aren't
going to stick around.

Matt who personally doesn't plan to leave unless
FIRST gets incredibly braindead

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Re: Gael Force Defensive?

Posted by Andy Grady at 04/28/2001 7:25 PM EST


Other on team #126, Gael Force, from Clinton High School and Nypro Inc..


In Reply to: Gael Force Defensive?
Posted by Bill Beatty on 04/28/2001 3:59 PM EST:



When I made the comments about defensive robots I wasn't neccessarily talking about Gael Force in particular. However, Gael Force is a great example of a team who has made robots that excel offensively, while also utilizing them in a strong defensive manner. I go back to the year you mentioned where the Gael Force ended up getting the perfect score at rumble. That same year I was with team 42, and we faced off against Gael Force at the regional competition. Using excelent defensive play, Gael Force managed to keep us from the puck, and pretty much take us totally out of the match while scoring good points. Moves like this make the game interesting in my eyes. When defensive play is added, the game becomes something more than a game of execution and good coreography. There is a level of strategic play and alot of mental games that go on. This is what adds to the drama. Instead of the most excelently engineered machine winning every year, you have teams who may not have the best robots, but they had heart. Of course as history shows, I have never seen a robot win a competition that was of poor quality in engineering anyway, so as you can see, it still truely is a competition of good engineering as well as inteligence on the field.
Thanx,
Andy Grady


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Throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

Posted by Joe Johnson at 04/28/2001 8:40 PM EST


Engineer on team #47, Chief Delphi, from Pontiac Central High School and Delphi Automotive Systems.


In Reply to: Gael Force Defensive?
Posted by Bill Beatty on 04/28/2001 3:59 PM EST:



It seems to me that FIRST is throwing the baby out with
the bath water.

Is it true that the ONLY way to prevent boring matches
in the finals due to pinning, tipping, entangling, etc.
to totally eliminate head to head competition?

I think that this year's non-competition plus a level
of complexity that I still shake my head at was a big
step in the wrong direction.

I know I sound like a broken record (CD player?) but
contrary to what some have said on this forum, I
believe very strongly that FIRST needs TV in a big way.
FIRST is about changing the culture and like it or not
in America, TV IS the culture.

While I don't think that FIRST should try to satisfy
every aspect of the desires of a TV audience, I don't
think it is in FIRST's best interest to design a robot
season that is openly hostile to the getting TV coverage.

Yes I know that FIRST has grown very nicely without
much help from TV, but that is not evidence that FIRST
does not need TV. Frankly it is an open question
whether FIRST can continue to grow in a declining or
stagnant economy. It is also an open question what
growth rate FIRST would have had had TV been their
ally. I hate to bring up the battle bots debate again,
but think about the growth rate that they must have to
go from near obscurity to 650 teams (more than FIRST by
the way) in just over 2 years.

Finally, Dean has been saying for years that he only
had is hand out to corporate America (and corporate
worldwide) on a temporary basis, that eventually, FIRST
would garner enough eyeballs to be worthy of
sponsorship the same way that the NCAA and the Olympics
get sponsorship. Well, I would argue that this year's
non-competition did not advance that goal and in fact
pushed that goal farther away from us all.

Joe J.


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Amen, brother Joe

Posted by Andy Baker at 04/30/2001 12:22 AM EST


Engineer on team #45, TechnoKats, from Kokomo High School and Delphi Automotive Systems.


In Reply to: Throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
Posted by Joe Johnson on 04/28/2001 8:40 PM EST:



Right there with ya, Joe.

I said it before, and I'll say it again:

I don't care if we're 2 vs 2, 1 on 1, 4 on 0, 27 on 11... whatever.

Make us play with bowling pins, footballs, golf balls or tiddly-winks... that's OK.

Give us rules saying that we must use materials out of the 1995 LL Bean summer catolog... fine.

Just make the game easy for spectators to understand and media-friendly.

Andy B.


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