Go to Post Is Atlanta an Indian word for "take the longest path between two places"? - Klondike Mike [more]
Home
Go Back   Chief Delphi > Competition > Rules/Strategy
CD-Media   CD-Spy  
portal register members calendar search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read FAQ rules

 
Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #1   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 25-02-2002, 19:08
Stephen Kowski's Avatar
Stephen Kowski Stephen Kowski is offline
BSEE, MSEE, JD
AKA: employed
no team
Team Role: Alumni
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Rookie Year: 2000
Location: Saint Petersburg, FL
Posts: 1,144
Stephen Kowski has a reputation beyond reputeStephen Kowski has a reputation beyond reputeStephen Kowski has a reputation beyond reputeStephen Kowski has a reputation beyond reputeStephen Kowski has a reputation beyond reputeStephen Kowski has a reputation beyond reputeStephen Kowski has a reputation beyond reputeStephen Kowski has a reputation beyond reputeStephen Kowski has a reputation beyond reputeStephen Kowski has a reputation beyond reputeStephen Kowski has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to Stephen Kowski
Question Confused on drafting in finals.

Ok after all this talk does anyone have any official ruling on how FIRST is doing the drafting, and who is allowed to pick who (as in seeded teams not unranked). Who is exactly are the #1, #2, and #3 alliances allowed and not allowed to pick, and if they pick another seeded team, what happens to the chosen team's picks in respect to the other teams. With all the talk about it I got lost someone plz help. (I was under the impression that the seeded alliances were allowed to pick whomever they wanted seeded or not, of course, if the seeded team they chose declines that team has to choose someone else.)

thx for the help,
-Stephen Kowski
-Team 312: Heat Wave
  #2   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 26-02-2002, 01:11
ColleenShaver's Avatar
ColleenShaver ColleenShaver is offline
Asst Dir, WPI Robotics Resource Ctr
FRC #0190 (Gompei and the HERD)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Rookie Year: 1996
Location: Clinton/Worcester, MA
Posts: 399
ColleenShaver is a glorious beacon of lightColleenShaver is a glorious beacon of lightColleenShaver is a glorious beacon of lightColleenShaver is a glorious beacon of lightColleenShaver is a glorious beacon of lightColleenShaver is a glorious beacon of light
Send a message via AIM to ColleenShaver
Talking

Last year, teams were allowed to choose from anyone not already chosen, seeded or not.

This year they have gone back to the old way. The team with the most qualifying points (or highest average, same difference) is #1 seed and so on.. The top 8 teams are ranked and get to choose their partners from any teams NOT in the top 8. If a team declines, they are not allowed to be chosen by another team.

Also, something important when choosing: all 3 teams must play at least once in every round of the elimination matchs (i.e. quarter-, semi-, finals).

Unless the rules have changed and I haven't seen them, you CANNOT choose from the other top 8 seeded teams, but anyone from 9 down is open for choosing and must accept or forfeit play.

See everyone in Virginia, Silicon Valley, and Nationals!

---colleen
__________________
Colleen Shaver (Traitor) - Assistant Director, WPI Robotics Resource Center
FRC190 WPI/Mass Academy (2001-Present) :: FRC246 BU/O'Bryant School (2000) :: FRC126 Nypro/Clinton High (1996-1999)

  #3   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 26-02-2002, 07:57
Joe Ross's Avatar Unsung FIRST Hero
Joe Ross Joe Ross is offline
Registered User
FRC #0330 (Beachbots)
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Rookie Year: 1997
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 8,605
Joe Ross has a reputation beyond reputeJoe Ross has a reputation beyond reputeJoe Ross has a reputation beyond reputeJoe Ross has a reputation beyond reputeJoe Ross has a reputation beyond reputeJoe Ross has a reputation beyond reputeJoe Ross has a reputation beyond reputeJoe Ross has a reputation beyond reputeJoe Ross has a reputation beyond reputeJoe Ross has a reputation beyond reputeJoe Ross has a reputation beyond repute
Rule T7 says:
Quote:
Eight (8) alliances at Regional Events and thirty-two (32) alliances (8 per division) at The
Championship Event qualify to advance to the elimination matches. The alliances are
formed as follows:
• For Regional Events: From the top eight (8) seeded teams, starting in descending rank
order, a pre-college student representative selects an alliance partner from among the
remaining unpartnered teams. After all eight teams have selected their first partner, the
process repeats and a second partner is selected.
• For The Championship Event: Teams are evenly divided up into 4 “divisions.” Within
each division, from the top eight (8) seeded teams, starting in descending rank order, a
pre-college student representative selects an alliance partner from among the remaining
unpartnered teams. After all eight teams have selected their first partner, the process
repeats and a second partner is selected.
As you can see, it says that a seeded team can choose an unpartnered team. This leads some people to say that at that point, all teams are unpartnered and the first seed can choose any team, including another seeded team.

On the other hand, it says that after all 8 teams have chosen their first partners, the process repeats. Presumably these are the same 8 teams that were seeded 1-8, since nothing is said otherwise (in 2000, when you could pick a seeded team, it was explicitly stated that if a top seed was chosen, then the 9th seed, etc, got to choose)

I know you aren't the only one confused...
  #4   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 27-02-2002, 00:14
soap108's Avatar
soap108 soap108 is offline
Registered User
FRC #0108 (SigmaC@T)
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Rookie Year: 1995
Location: Plantation, FL
Posts: 511
soap108 is a splendid one to beholdsoap108 is a splendid one to beholdsoap108 is a splendid one to beholdsoap108 is a splendid one to beholdsoap108 is a splendid one to beholdsoap108 is a splendid one to beholdsoap108 is a splendid one to behold
i've asked first via email several times and still no reply

  #5   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 27-02-2002, 08:36
Joe Johnson's Avatar Unsung FIRST Hero
Joe Johnson Joe Johnson is offline
Engineer at Medrobotics
AKA: Dr. Joe
FRC #0088 (TJ2)
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: May 2001
Rookie Year: 1996
Location: Raynham, MA
Posts: 2,648
Joe Johnson has a reputation beyond reputeJoe Johnson has a reputation beyond reputeJoe Johnson has a reputation beyond reputeJoe Johnson has a reputation beyond reputeJoe Johnson has a reputation beyond reputeJoe Johnson has a reputation beyond reputeJoe Johnson has a reputation beyond reputeJoe Johnson has a reputation beyond reputeJoe Johnson has a reputation beyond reputeJoe Johnson has a reputation beyond reputeJoe Johnson has a reputation beyond repute
Not to kick 'em while they are down...

But...

I have really been fustrated with the speed of responses from FIRST this year. Yes, they have to deal with almost 700 teams this year, but it seems like they have really really gone into low gear when it comes to answering important questions.

To name a few examples:[list=1][*]Will we be able to make spare / repair parts after a regional?[*]Tethers vs. entanglement[*]Can a mechanism reach into the custom electronics box?[*]is Football thre right sports analogy or is Soccer?[*]and now how does the drafting process work[/list=1]

I am very curious why things have gotten so much slower this year.

Joe J.
  #6   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 27-02-2002, 09:31
soap108's Avatar
soap108 soap108 is offline
Registered User
FRC #0108 (SigmaC@T)
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Rookie Year: 1995
Location: Plantation, FL
Posts: 511
soap108 is a splendid one to beholdsoap108 is a splendid one to beholdsoap108 is a splendid one to beholdsoap108 is a splendid one to beholdsoap108 is a splendid one to beholdsoap108 is a splendid one to beholdsoap108 is a splendid one to behold
I imagine they look at the elim process and say: "Teams will find out after the first weekend anyway." "It's not a make-or-break need-to-know-right-now kinda thing."

If they don't post an answer soon then they should expect to be bugged about it on 3/7 - the first practice day of first weekend.


A simple YES #1 can pick #2 or NO they can't would be nice.

KA-108
  #7   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 27-02-2002, 14:47
Ken Leung's Avatar Unsung FIRST Hero
Ken Leung Ken Leung is offline
Dare to Live!
FRC #0115 (Monta Vista Robotics Team)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: May 2001
Rookie Year: 1999
Location: Palo Alto, California
Posts: 2,390
Ken Leung has a reputation beyond reputeKen Leung has a reputation beyond reputeKen Leung has a reputation beyond reputeKen Leung has a reputation beyond reputeKen Leung has a reputation beyond reputeKen Leung has a reputation beyond reputeKen Leung has a reputation beyond reputeKen Leung has a reputation beyond reputeKen Leung has a reputation beyond reputeKen Leung has a reputation beyond reputeKen Leung has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to Ken Leung
Re: Not to kick 'em while they are down...

Quote:
Originally posted by Joe Johnson
But...

I have really been fustrated with the speed of responses from FIRST this year. Yes, they have to deal with almost 700 teams this year, but it seems like they have really really gone into low gear when it comes to answering important questions.

To name a few examples:[list=1][*]Will we be able to make spare / repair parts after a regional?[*]Tethers vs. entanglement[*]Can a mechanism reach into the custom electronics box?[*]is Football thre right sports analogy or is Soccer?[*]and now how does the drafting process work[/list=1]

I am very curious why things have gotten so much slower this year.

Joe J.

You would be surprised at how long it take to answer each of the questions. Not only do LOTS and LOTS of people ask questions on the board, they are also really tricky questions sometimes. So, as soon as the FRCengineers realize they can't post a straight forward answer, they leave it waiting with the rest of the pile until they ask people like Eric who decide what the answer is.

Sometimes it is really frustrating when 120 questions are just sitting there and most of them hard to answer and keep track of.
And I remember one of the FRCengineers telling me how busy they are in Engineering. Sometimes they are so busy that they couldn't even look at the questiosn, some other times they have 4~5 people sitting there half the afternoon and post about 20 responds.

Believe me, they are working hard. This only shows how much FIRST need more staff when there are so much growth in the competition.

Few suggestion I want to make to FIRST after all these are over:

1. Have a top pirority group for questions that need immediate attention. It will be the kind of questions you mentioned that would affect lots of teams.

2. Improve the manual and make it easier for teams to understand everything. We got a lot of great responds from the FRCengineers with good explaination that could go into the manual, and tell teams exactly what each rule mean.

3. Explain to teams how important it is to READ THE MANUAL. A lot of questions wouldn't have been asked if the team read the manual first. There are a lot of new rules and info coming out in team updates, but people still keep asking the same questions as if they don't even know what team update is.

4. Better way to organize answers on the board, so that teams can easily look through 800 messages and find what they need to read...

I think all these could be done with a few months before 6-weeks, but I guess they didn't think about it before hand. So, mean while, for the more important questions, I guess you just have to call them up and let them hear your voice.

I wish I couldn't joined in earlier and help them clear out lots of silly questions... but I didn't join until the 4th week or so.
  #8   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 27-02-2002, 21:55
natalie natalie is offline
Registered User
#0288 (Robodawgs)
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Grandville, Michigan
Posts: 7
natalie is an unknown quantity at this point
In the referee's conference last week, this question was addressed. The answer was that seeded teams can pick each other. In other words Number 1 seed can pick Number 2 seed etc. Number 2 can refuse because thay still can pick. If Number 2 says yes, than the Number 9 seed becomes the eight seed etc. Here is another scenario. If Number 1 picks Number 9 and Number 9 refuses thinking that they may get a chance to be a picker and no one else picks a seed team Number 9 would be out, but if they get lucky and another seeded team picks another seeded team than Number 9 becomes number 8 and they will be allowed to pick.
  #9   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 27-02-2002, 22:03
Stephen Kowski's Avatar
Stephen Kowski Stephen Kowski is offline
BSEE, MSEE, JD
AKA: employed
no team
Team Role: Alumni
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Rookie Year: 2000
Location: Saint Petersburg, FL
Posts: 1,144
Stephen Kowski has a reputation beyond reputeStephen Kowski has a reputation beyond reputeStephen Kowski has a reputation beyond reputeStephen Kowski has a reputation beyond reputeStephen Kowski has a reputation beyond reputeStephen Kowski has a reputation beyond reputeStephen Kowski has a reputation beyond reputeStephen Kowski has a reputation beyond reputeStephen Kowski has a reputation beyond reputeStephen Kowski has a reputation beyond reputeStephen Kowski has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to Stephen Kowski
Quote:
Originally posted by soap108
I imagine they look at the elim process and say: "Teams will find out after the first weekend anyway." "It's not a make-or-break need-to-know-right-now kinda thing."

If they don't post an answer soon then they should expect to be bugged about it on 3/7 - the first practice day of first weekend.


A simple YES #1 can pick #2 or NO they can't would be nice.

KA-108
They can be sure I am going to be asking when I get to KSC (asking, harrassing....whatever)
  #10   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 28-02-2002, 13:33
soap108's Avatar
soap108 soap108 is offline
Registered User
FRC #0108 (SigmaC@T)
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Rookie Year: 1995
Location: Plantation, FL
Posts: 511
soap108 is a splendid one to beholdsoap108 is a splendid one to beholdsoap108 is a splendid one to beholdsoap108 is a splendid one to beholdsoap108 is a splendid one to beholdsoap108 is a splendid one to beholdsoap108 is a splendid one to behold
Quote:
Originally posted by natalie
In the referee's conference last week, this question was addressed. The answer was that seeded teams can pick each other. In other words Number 1 seed can pick Number 2 seed etc. Number 2 can refuse because thay still can pick. If Number 2 says yes, than the Number 9 seed becomes the eight seed etc. Here is another scenario. If Number 1 picks Number 9 and Number 9 refuses thinking that they may get a chance to be a picker and no one else picks a seed team Number 9 would be out, but if they get lucky and another seeded team picks another seeded team than Number 9 becomes number 8 and they will be allowed to pick.
Ok. I talked with the next best thing to FIRST- the head scoring db author (who btw actually did talk with Eric on this). This above quote is now false. #1 may not pick #2, etc...

Here's a quote from the email I got based on the most recent scorekeepers training: "The statement was made that the teams can select among remaining
unpartnered teams. The ruling will come out that the top 8 seeded teams
are the ones doing the selection, and they will be considered
"partnered" or whatever wording is used. It just would not be fair to
let them select among themselves.
"

Hope this settles the issue. And hopefully FIRST doesn't change their mind between now and .... later.

Best regards,
KA-108
  #11   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 28-02-2002, 14:00
AdamT's Avatar
AdamT AdamT is offline
.
#0401
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Rookie Year: 2000
Location: not Blacksburg, Virginia
Posts: 836
AdamT is on a distinguished road
You say that someone had reguarded this as not fair and that we may be going back to the old system of #1 not picking #2...

If my memory serves me correctly, 2000 ("the old way") #1 COULD pick #2. As unfair as this may be, that's life. I remember VCU in 2000 where this situation came or #1 picking #2 and a powerhouse was formed, you just do your best to beat them...

I'm still curious to a final response as well.
__________________
~Adam

  #12   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 28-02-2002, 14:13
soap108's Avatar
soap108 soap108 is offline
Registered User
FRC #0108 (SigmaC@T)
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Rookie Year: 1995
Location: Plantation, FL
Posts: 511
soap108 is a splendid one to beholdsoap108 is a splendid one to beholdsoap108 is a splendid one to beholdsoap108 is a splendid one to beholdsoap108 is a splendid one to beholdsoap108 is a splendid one to beholdsoap108 is a splendid one to behold
2002 != 2000
  #13   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 28-02-2002, 14:17
soap108's Avatar
soap108 soap108 is offline
Registered User
FRC #0108 (SigmaC@T)
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Rookie Year: 1995
Location: Plantation, FL
Posts: 511
soap108 is a splendid one to beholdsoap108 is a splendid one to beholdsoap108 is a splendid one to beholdsoap108 is a splendid one to beholdsoap108 is a splendid one to beholdsoap108 is a splendid one to beholdsoap108 is a splendid one to behold
In 1999, the first year of alliances, #1 could not pick 2-8.
  #14   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 28-02-2002, 14:26
AdamT's Avatar
AdamT AdamT is offline
.
#0401
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Rookie Year: 2000
Location: not Blacksburg, Virginia
Posts: 836
AdamT is on a distinguished road
Just makin sure everyone was on the same page....

I think it would be cool to see things go back to pre-2000 ways...make the creativity of tournament flow...
__________________
~Adam

  #15   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 28-02-2002, 14:33
soap108's Avatar
soap108 soap108 is offline
Registered User
FRC #0108 (SigmaC@T)
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Rookie Year: 1995
Location: Plantation, FL
Posts: 511
soap108 is a splendid one to beholdsoap108 is a splendid one to beholdsoap108 is a splendid one to beholdsoap108 is a splendid one to beholdsoap108 is a splendid one to beholdsoap108 is a splendid one to beholdsoap108 is a splendid one to behold
Personally I don't really have a preference regarding the various elim-picking flavors we've been exposed to. I just want to try and reduce ambiguity about 2002.

Whatever the future holds, 2003 and beyond, please no more "Tournament Trees" like 1995-1998. Programmatically they are a nightmare!

Food 4 thought: What if future drafting was done like most major sports where teams could trade their draft pick away for "cash" and "a player to be named later" or "2 picks in the second round". Wow! Now what's everyone got to say about that? Pls start a 2003 elim drafting thread and fire away!

KA-108
Closed Thread


Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Finding myself quite confused... Alphawolf829 Robotics Education and Curriculum 8 16-12-2002 20:19
What really would have helped in finals is....... archiver 2001 4 24-06-2002 03:24
getting picked for finals... archiver 2001 11 24-06-2002 02:55
Are the Semis & Finals worth playing? archiver 2001 8 24-06-2002 00:15
dead robot in the finals? srawls Rules/Strategy 2 24-03-2002 14:44


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 18:04.

The Chief Delphi Forums are sponsored by Innovation First International, Inc.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © Chief Delphi