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  #31   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 12-01-2003, 20:59
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You are 100% correct....
this is why I think that ALL machining hours should cost against the final assessed cost.

I'm not saying you have to pay for it....just that the hours of work get assigned.

Ok...I'd even be game to allowing the total value to rise up above $3500....but not so high that it would knock the teams that have to actually pay for it right out of the competition.

Cost control is a major aspect of Engineering a product.



Quote:
Originally posted by Justin Stiltner
I see it as only hurting more some teams... here is an example

A is sponsord by say acme manufacturing and they have a huge shop with lathe, mill, rapid prototyping, ect.

B is sponsored by say citibank corp. who only donates money.

well A uses the tools of their "sponsor" to make their robot
and B tryes to make the same thing that A made.. well their quote from the machene shop was 5K well B cannot get that part made... they cant make it themselves for lack of tools... but A has no diffulticy in making it because the shop is a "sponsor", B could have easily paied for the labor.. but this years rule forbids it.. so in this case little jhonny students great gearbox, or other device dident get made cause of that rule.. but if jhonny had been on team A it would have been made and used...

now how is that fair for anybody?
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  #32   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 12-01-2003, 21:01
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A) THIS COMPETITION IS NOT FAIR - Woody only said that!
B) Read up on S.P.A.M. team history. We've worked our butts off (well some of us) to get this far.
C) I'd suggest you read a few of the posts. I'm not questioning fairness, we all know this competition has never been fair. When I started, there were teams with 5 machine shops (staffed) and 6 engineers assigned to this competition and a nice fat $250,000 budget....at S.P.A.M. it was whatever money we raised (being in Florida it was easier to go to Nationals and KSC Regionals), engineers and machinists donating their time...its still this way with one exception. We've grown, the team size has nearly quadrupled in my time so far on S.P.A.M. and those 5 machine shops we have lined up are apart of the growth, a part of our mission to spread the words of F.I.R.S.T. out to our community. You have to start somewhere and those machine shops and engineering facilities have a lot to benefit. Its a both win situation here.
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Unread 12-01-2003, 21:04
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Well I was thinking the students, with the machenists help were making the parts on A anyway. So that could still be counted as free... I wasent thinking of the machenists getting paied to help the team.
When it comes down to it.. i think that material should have been the only cost thing, and like in 2001 some stuff is just free like fastners, and gears. and extruded AL up to a certain size.
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  #34   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 12-01-2003, 21:04
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Quote:
A is sponsord by say acme manufacturing and they have a huge shop with lathe, mill, rapid prototyping, ect.
The rule states is that you can get the service done at any price but has to have the street value on your robots bill or materials which rules out your scenario.
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Unread 12-01-2003, 21:11
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I was at one of our sponsors and primary machine shop (whose owner is a great man who also lined up the 4 other machine shops). He has a sign that shows the rate, $75 dollars an hour I believe. That's a lot of money.
  #36   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 12-01-2003, 21:14
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wusiwg, A has them as their SPONSOR.. they give them the use of their machenes, and the men come in on their own time.. and the parts are made by students under their supervision.. you dont have to count that in the 3500
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  #37   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 12-01-2003, 21:18
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WOOPS I didn't read the message all the way. wow 75 dollars an hour. I know what I'm becoming.
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Unread 12-01-2003, 21:26
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Justin:
The sponsor has to be a "named sponsor" -- not to have the labor cost included as part of the $3500 -- now there are teams out there who has companies that are willing to sponsor the team by the virtual of allowing the team to either use the machinery or even by helping with machining. These are the small shops that do not have the financial resources to dole out BIG BUCKS! In the old days -- Barter was a way of life -- in a sense -- when companies are willing to lend a hand -- it is in the concept of bartering -- they don't have the $$ to give -- but yet want to help the team -- when they work with the students -- especially the aspiring engineers that most of you are -- you may gain some insight as to why engineers should design something that is "machinist friendly" -- in lot of ways -- it is a learning experience -- aside from the big kahuna teams -- most teams do a lot of the work on their own -- this is my observation from speaking to various teams at competitons.
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Unread 12-01-2003, 21:34
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In that senaro thats what I ment, those were the teams only sponsors. And what if a team has a bunch of sponsors, but they are greedy and the only way they will give the kids money is to have themselves in the name but the shop isnt like that.. so they registered without the shops name in theirs ... were going to have some big names this year if this rule stands as it is
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  #40   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 12-01-2003, 21:39
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Re: machine shop access

Quote:
Originally posted by JamesJones


1. I'm still going to build the same robot, you just better get a good magazine when we go on stage because our name is going to contain our sponsor + five machine shops....hence free labor.


I quoted my teammate and adult mentor once and I'll do it again.
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Unread 12-01-2003, 21:51
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Most teams that are established now do not have machine shops in their name -- yes you are right -- now we are going to have teams with very long names -- but who force these teams to do so in the first place -- as an volunteer and a teacher -- I could not in good faith --tell the kids to ignore the rules -- we will have to adopt all these shops' names as part of our name -- by introducing this rule -- FIRST has made it difficult for a lot of teams -- I am sure that it was not their intent -- but in another thread relating to this dilemna -- it would have been a good idea if FIRST open the rule to discussion prior to implementation. Another thing -- if the teams were forced to paid the shops for services -- teams may not afford to go to competitions -- there goes the budget -- unless you are member of one the big kahuna teams with deep pockets.
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Unread 13-01-2003, 09:41
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This is our 4th year in the competition. The first year (2000) was with a minimal budget and support. Our robot was simple and straightforward. Its total cost (including the cost of registration and kit of parts) was about $10,000, including cost of "donated" labor. The 2001 robot was similar. The 2003 robot cost was about $13,000, including estimated cost for donated labor from "partner" machine shops. In all three years we were very competitive, with a simple but robust design. It IS possible to create a competitive robot with the $3500 cost of parts and labor. The REAL cost of a team is travel (and pizza)...

Team 343 - 2000 Kennedy - 2nd place alliance, 2001 Kennedy - 1st Place alliance, VCU - 1st place alliance, 2003 Kennedy - 1st place alliance, St Louis - 1st place alliance, Nationals - Curie Finalist alliance, 2003 ?????
  #43   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 13-01-2003, 18:38
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Yes it is possible to create and manufacture a simple robot with $3500. But that is not the dispute in those terms. We are discussing the more advanced, complex, robots that many veteran teams will be constructing. Many robots will be brave little toasters (BLTs) that just run around on the field due to the number of teams who lack funds and/or are rookies. But we here accept the $3500, but we strongly and firmly believe what why should we be penalized for designing a complex, multi-system robot capable of doing many different things. Our gearbox design, the original one, was in the neighborhood of a couple grand and that was last years. the only reason we didn't choose it was because with one machine shop, the parts for all the things we needed would never have been done in time for shipping. Thus we asked for support from other area machine shops to not only alleviate this problem this year and obtain sponsors (through their assistence in machining parts) but spread the message of F.I.R.S.T.. This allows us to grow as a team as we gain experience with working with different designs that, yes it looks great on paper, but we never could really implement for various reason and the primary one outside of money was the machining involved. Read a few of the earlier posts.

Yes you are right, the greatest expense is going to the competition but that is not the dispute here.
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