Project Lead The Way!

[Tom Bottiglieri]

Originally Posted by UCGL_Guy

Question for this thread - We (476) are looking at proposing the integration of FIRST into a new PLTW group being set up in our VO Tech system here in Oklahoma. We are looking for ideas of what has worked and how this is done.
And also how well do the two integrate together.
Any information is appreciated.
email rather than posting if you prefer.
Ken

Well PLTW and FIRST are very similar programs in that they both teach high school kids about engineering and try to get them to see whether they are interested in engineering or not. Our school does not combine FIRST and PLTW, but it seems like it could be every beneficial to both sides. In either program there may be students who are not interested in the other program.. such as students who are interested in engineering but not in robots, or interested in a robot team but not engineering, so you have to keep the progream exciting for them also and not engulf it with FIRST material.

But ya.. a few things i thought of that you can do are to
1) integrate FIRST material into the regular class schedule. in IED for example, instead of modeling, assembling, and driving a model train.. try a gearbox.
2) in the programable logic array section of DE, get into PIC's and how they work, and how to program them. If you do not know, the RC in the FIRST kit uses a PIC to run the user program and control the robot. Test the programs on the actual RC. Also, you can use the RC for a variety of projects the kids are working on.
3) CNC stuff for the robot in the CIM class.
4) Parallel path things that are being worked on in both programs.

just basic stuff like that.

For anyone whos PLTW program has been around for 4 years and has had seniors who have been through the whole program and have made their full year senior projects, you know that FIRST is very like pltw. The teachers always tell us how the senior project is very beneficial becuase you go through the whole design process.. from idea concepts to research to prototyping to final product. FIRST does the same thing. I think FIRST is a much better experience tho. But both of them together is great. Oh well i'll stop rambling.

[Hiteak]

My school does fallow the PLTW program, but some of the teachers dont explain things very well. It took about 2 weeks for my teacher to explain forces in POE, but my math teacher 20 minutes. FIRST explained everything that we did. It was alot easier to fallow everything in FIRST.

[kristen]

Heh, I took the DDP course this year for my fine art credit.. like Yan said above, it was def NOT worth a year.. or even half a year.. I seriously learned nothing in that class that I didn't easily teach myself. And most of the people in my class played games..

I'm taking Digital Electronics next year. I'm, um, not quite sure why... I'm even giving up half a year of lunch to take it

[dez250]

i guess its just your teacher yan and Kristen... I have heard only praise from Ithaca but i guess the ddp teacher isn't at par, well all i can say is wait for DE and take the class... I took it and learned allot (even from Abrham Michalins labs) though thats all another story... Keep all your response coming, I'm hoping to have enough responses after some time here, that i will forward to a pltw official and show them the praise and/or the constructive criticism from here...

~Mike

[Yan Wang]

Andy Baker: I stated my experience with the class and also the experience of my many friends who have taken it and asked themselves the question, "wtf did I just do that for?". In no way did I mean to imply (did I?) that the PLTW situation in our high school is what all PLTW courses are like in other schools. However, the curriculum is the same and looking through it, I found that I either knew it or could experiment with it during some free time rather than devoting a year-long course to it. The analogy of taking up a calculus book and memorizing it seems somewhat harsh. One does not become smart by memorizing and I don't learn the PLTW curriculum by reading the huge textbooks which are never finished by the class. In my free time, I will have fun working with electronics, machining, or as I mentioned, looking at how mastercam works and then taking the time to go and do it for myself. Without doing anything, those memorized facts dissipate as fast as the sunshine here in Ithaca

Andy Baker:
For our team, the students in the Inventor class get through their projects pretty quickly, and then they start working on FIRST stuff (heh... the teacher is on the team, and he has read these Forums for 4-5 years now). So even the motivated students can take the course, get ahead, and work on FIRST-team related stuff in their class time.

^^ In reference to that, that is one point that I tried to make. Many robotics members are in PLTW courses and as you said, they get through the activities quickly and thereby don't pick up anything new from the CLASS itself. They instead go and work on robotics (the teacher is also on team and also ok with it) but that is not the course! So, what I'm trying to say is, the course itself didn't teach them that much as Kristen mentioned: "I seriously learned nothing in that class that I didn't easily teach myself. And most of the people in my class played games.."

My opinion still stands that the course is not a worthwhile pursuit for anyone doing robotics (considering how motivated and dedicated you have to be to work hard for 6 weeks) but may be for some people who have no engineering experience. However, even those people without any experience also seem to find the courses easy. I spend many of my free periods in the tech rooms (to work on robotics) and I note that people are rarely at work, and if they are yelled at enough to actually do some work, they do it quickly. I think PLTW would be a much better course if it required more out of the students. Otherwise, as Kristen mentioned, the students just play games, talk, and listen to music. Now, that may suggest to you that the teachers can't control the class and to a certain extent, I find that true. But even when work is handed out, the people in the course whisper or put on their headphones. The situation of PLTW at our school is as mentioned, and that is what dez250 seems to be asking about. I cannot tell dez250 whether he'll have a wonderful experience at his school with PLTW or whether he'll be bored like us. But in any case, that is my experience and Kristen's (I won't vouch for anyone else's but I can track down more people if you'd like further testimonies of class experiences) and it is not a worthy one.

[dez250]

i want to state one thing before furthering with this thread, that is that i have been through all but on PLTW course, and that is the EDD course which i will be taking next year. What it sounds like is your class(es) are not properly thought, i am not saying its a bad class or a bad teacher or a bad school, but the pltw courses have thought everyone i know who took them allot, even i will go to say that we have had our professional engineers work with the students after school sometimes during robotics with POE problems and they said that they remember stuff like that from after college and in the real world. i may be going out on a long shot here but it sounds like you (yan) ha vent taken any class other then DDP through PLTW.

~Mike

Please i don't want this a bickering thread, as i just want some reply as to how you have all come across PLTW and also what you think of it, positive or negative.

[colin340]

in my opinion pltw is great but may of the softwares so hard to use they often times put my computer life in danger

[Starke]

Originally Posted by colin340

in my opinion pltw is great but may of the softwares so hard to use they often times put my computer life in danger

its good to here from you giggles . i came from churchville which has project lead the way. i thought it was a great experience and is continuing to help me in college for my degree. what a great head start for some of the courses in college.

[Jon Jack]

Our school (High Tech High - San Diego) uses the PTLW curriculum. They offer POE for Juniors and EDD (Engineering Design and Development) for Seniors. Every student at our school must take a semester of POE in order to graduate.

As for the question of how to integrate FIRST and PLTW:

Every Senior member of Team 1538 that takes EDD (which at our school is a two-hour long class after lunch) works on FIRST or something that can be FIRST related.

During the pre-season students work on prototyping parts and up keeping tools and machinery. For example, one student developed a custom 2-Speed Transmission and gear box.

During the build season students work on designing and building our robot. Everything on our robot this year is custom except for the motors and wheels and it was all designed, machined/fabricated and built by students.

During the post-season students work on designing and prototyping parts and building the field for Battle at the Border.

[Joohoo]

It is offered in my school. I've taken DDP, and currently POE. It is pretty fun, the only thing that i would like to see better is more hands on in POE. Although it may just be the fact that the Tech Dept. only has a budget of $5 per class .
I can see were DDP/IED can be a little boring for those who already know Autodesk, sketching and designing. Thats why it is designed to be a four year course and to start as a freshman.

[Hiteak]

Took DDP as freshman ( and was 1 of 3 to get college credit for it).
Taking POE and Digital Electronics now
Signed up for CIM next year.
I learned alot about drafting and elctronics in my DDP class and Digital class. Some of that really help our team this year because I was the major 3D drafting person on the team.
I would recommend everyone who has the chance to take it because it saves alot of money from college.

[Yan Wang]

No, in fact, I didn't take any PLTW courses officially after interviewing some of the people who had taken them when I was in 8th grade. I sat in on the DDP course the first year during lunch and sat in on the electronics and also ddp during my free period this year. The course is taught fine, but I don't think it moves fast enough. But that's my opinion. For CIM next year, I've pretty much covered most of the stuff. The previous CIM guy (GregT) will be going off to RIT and not too many people next year will actually know how to use it (though quite a few will be taking the course). So w/e the course may teach, it's not a challenge. I decided to take two AP sciences next year rather than fitting CIM in.

[Amanda Morrison]

Originally posted by monsieurcoffee
No, in fact, I didn't take any PLTW courses officially after interviewing some of the people who had taken them when I was in 8th grade.

Originally posted by kristen
I seriously learned nothing in that class that I didn't easily teach myself.

I'm happy to see that such advanced students are involved with FIRST. However, many students do not have the advantage of going home and teaching themselves software, and many try to pick up skills that PLTW offers. PLTW was designed to help students interested in that type of career but have previously had little or no chance to learn or tinker around.

I do believe that PLTW wasn't meant to cater to everyone's engineering education, but rather to clue others into this field. While it appears that this program wasn't exactly the type that would help you personally, your comments really make it seem as though the class is a waste of time for everyone. I really think a lot of FIRSTers could benefit, but what you've said almost makes it look bad simply because it was below your skill level and for no other reason.

Originally posted by monsieurcoffee
My opinion still stands that the course is not a worthwhile pursuit for anyone doing robotics (considering how motivated and dedicated you have to be to work hard for 6 weeks) but may be for some people who have no engineering experience.

I consider myself a very dedicated and motivated person during the six week build period, and I try to work hard at what I do. Yet rarely do I ever even touch the robot, help plan, or do any machining. Your comment kind of hurts my feelings - as though I shouldn't be involved in this program because of my lack of engineering skills.

I wish you would reconsider that statement - apparently there are more people involved in FIRST than you happen to realize that haven't previously had any kind of experience with actual engineering yet (or maybe they choose to have it that way). I don't know if your class was taught within your high school by high school teachers, etc., or how different it will be from the program here taught by Purdue University. Considering what you've mentioned about your program, including playing games in the classroom and other such activities, it seems as though your program is a gross outcast from the norm. Everything that I've heard or seen about PLTW has been successful, and it sounds as though yours was a failure - a failure to inspire the students by using the curriculum.

[dez250]

like that of amandas post i would like to state that this course is not a program that should be looked at as just another class for joe teacher to come along and teach. PLTW is that of skills of college and it may not be fair for all schools because you may not have college professors teaching some of the classes or as in my case an nuclear engineer. it seems in your some cases the classes may be dumbed down due to a teachers lack of skills in that field. now coffee, i just want to ask if i was to give you a simple 3 throw lamp, could you draw a correct full schematic for that, because auto-cad itself and the DDP course is an introduction to schematics and multi-view and 3d drawings. now you may say PLTW is a waist of your time but as myself going to be a mechanical engineer i think that learning the correct way to measure stress and strain and moments of a bridge and also the basics and equations of thermodynamics may be useful in my future of college and also it gives me a large head start at NO cost (or in some schools a very low cost) of learning college material from a person that is qualified in his field, beyond that of a normal high school or prehigh school teacher , even that of a college professor.
~Mike

just my ranting for now.

[Wayne C.]

Our school is looking to adopt PLTW in the next year but we simply cannot find a teacher capable of teaching it. Our current tech teacher/leader retired this year. There are simply no candidates out there to fill his place.

If anyone has a lead on a PLTW capable teacher in the central NJ area please let me know.

And for those who have these programs- treasure what you have.

WC