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View Poll Results: Should teams be allowed to make repair parts for their robot after a competition is o
Yes - Robots do break - Give us until Tuesday following. 80 61.54%
No - You break you will have to tuff out the repair on site 28 21.54%
No - Just pack up and go home, forget the nationals 3 2.31%
Just break the rule 19 14.62%
Voters: 130. You may not vote on this poll

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Unread 01-02-2002, 13:35
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It should be changed... but, in the mean time...

I agree that this rule is an oversight and should be changed. I especially like Chris Hibner's green box comprimise.

But...

In the mean time, we better all make spare parts now. If you were planning on making enough parts for a second robot for driving practice, maybe those parts should be shipped with your competition robot. We have a couple of weeks before we need to make that decision, but I can see many teams opening up their crates at a Regional with parts for two robots.

And...

This leads us to a few more problems:

Crates are gonna be heavier this year. Oh well.

Teams will be making parts in haste in their pits (or traveling trailers), using heavier machinery than usual. This is not good, since safety may be jeapordized. Actually, this could be the trump card in all of this. If this logic is correct, we can state that this new ruling will make the pit environment more unsafe. This fact may be a deciding factor with encouraging FIRST to let us make repair parts until the next Tuesday.

Andy B.

Last edited by Andy Baker : 01-02-2002 at 13:48.
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Unread 01-02-2002, 14:31
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Question on interpretation

Andy, my interpretation of the ruling is different from yours. Does anyone know of another rule that will clarify this matter?

The ruling Mike Martus quoted said all machining must be done at the competition. It doesn't say that all spare parts must be shipped with the robot. My interpretation is that you can make spare parts during the 6 weeks of build and bring them with you to competitions.

Mike
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Unread 01-02-2002, 15:21
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I think it was a Yahoo thing...

My recollection is that FIRST said that all improved raw materials must be shipped with the robot. As to where they said it, I think it was on one of the questions on Yahoo.

Anyone else have similar memories?

Joe J.

P.S. Message #358 seems to support a contrary view:

Quote:
> Since damage to robots is more possible this year, would it be
legal for a team to bring a manufactured replacement to Regionals in
> anticipation or in the event of a major problem occuring with our
> robot? (Such as a fractured frame)
A) You may bring manufactured spares as long as they do not violate
any other rule which disallows manufactured parts. FIRSTsnow



But... Message #459 supports the ship all improved parts side of the coin:

Quote:
A) First, you do not (and better not) ship your robots to FIRST, they
go to drayage and the events. Anything fabricated must be shipped
with the robot. Conversely, anything still in its original form from
the Kit or the Additonal Hardware List or Small Parts can be carried
to the event. You can build anything you want at the events.
FIRSTsnow


Last edited by Joe Johnson : 01-02-2002 at 15:28.
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Unread 01-02-2002, 15:34
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I wouldn't object IF...

there was a halfway reasonable chance of actually getting something worked on at an "official" event machine shop.

Our first year I personally waited for several hours at Nationals for a fifteen minute job to be done. It seems the team that got there ahead of me needed their entire frame rewelded. We missed a practice session as a result. Fortunately that was all we missed. This was at the best shop I ever saw at a competition.

I don't know about other venues but here in LA you can expect to NOT have ANY machine shop availability UNLESS there are some drastic changes from last year. Fortunately we didn't need shop services, but there are some pretty ugly stories from those who did.

I'm not saying that there isn't a shop, but it was so overloaded that there was no way you could count on getting anything done there. Not to mention that you had to be driven over there in a "shuttle" that came once in a blue moon.

Last year we had about 40 teams and at least half were experienced. This year there will be 80 teams and twice as many rookies as last year. I am planning on spending most of my time there helping other teams get their machines running and I am NOT looking forward to the line for the machine shop. Especially when FIRST has basically shut out the possibility of bringing your own.

As for spares, while that is possible for some obviously vulnerable components, in many cases you just can't know what will break. A few years ago I talked to a guy whose team lost the finals at Nationals because a little tension spring broke at a critical moment. That spring had never given them trouble before and they had been to at least one regional prior to Nats.

It's sort of like that Dilbert cartoon where the pointy haired boss asks Dilbert what kind of unforseen problems he expects and how long will they take to fix.

We'll bring along just about all the tools we can carry and if they are not in our fists in use any team is welcome to borrow them or our expertise. But we will not be bringing our own mill, lathe or welder, and somethings just can't be replaced by a vise and a drill motor.
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Unread 01-02-2002, 18:42
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End of Elegance-Dr. Joe is right

What else can be said?

Dr. Joe is right. This year is the end of elegance in FIRST.

I've had 2 years of experience with FIRST (last year and this year).

Last year (at least I thought) was great! At the J&J Mid-Atlantic regional, there were a few rookies, but otherwise teams knew what they were doing. There was a sort of magic in that arena, everyone supported each other, and we had a blast.

The concept of referees calling judgments is EVIL! Judges are partial, and vary from regional to regional. Something a team uses to win the finals at one regional could get them disqualified at another. The game itself is skewed via human error. HAL the computer can't judge every regional.

The nature of the game required intelligence, and information on other teams. I filled that role on my team. I worked like a madman, but in the end, achieved the Delphi Driving Tomorrow’s Technology Award, an accomplishment that I am most proud of. That pride will stay, not matter where FIRST goes.

This year, the J&J Mid-Atlantic has an entirely different set of teams, about 10 (out of 36) being rookies. A lot of local teams that were there last year have left.

I believe that FIRST has been expanding very rapidly during the past few years, and we are now paying the price, as FIRST tries to make a rookie-friendly game to accommodate all these new teams.

This year's game (quite opposed to last year) requires NO finesse. Last year, elegant solutions paid off with points and wins. The most ingenious robots (47, 45, 71, 365, etc) were the ones that won, and deserved to win.

This year, complex mechanics will be shoved and smashed, while the simplest 'bulldozer' can win out, because it can dish out, and take, more punishment than anyone else. It becomes better by bringing anyone better than it down, rather than by bringing itself up.

Teams having the ability to disable (practically) another robot by nullifying its ability to move, for the whole 2 minutes:

Is this contradictory to the spirit of FIRST or what?

I think this year will be a downhill year...it truly is the end of elegance. It is the end of an era, and a dawn of a 'mass marketing' FIRST. (This is, unless FIRST gets back into shape real quick)

It will probably be Battlebots this year, but it won't matter that much to me. Nothing at this point will change that; it's practically practice time

Who knows, if enough people complain, and enough robots get totaled, FIRST might go back to the old style of playing.

I witnessed some matches from 2 years ago, from the J&J Mid-Atlantic. Some people on this board may know which matches I'm talking about. These matches were akin more to Battlebots than FIRST, and they made me both sickened and ashamed of my team's behavior. A superior robot was beaten by another robot, by constant ramming and bashing, for the FULL 2 minutes.

This was in the finals.

The refs let it slide.

I apologize, on my OWN behalf, to that team. They know who they are, and they know what I’m talking about. It was ungracious, unprofessional, against the spirit of FIRST robotics. They should have won, and by my book, they did.

Do you think that teams would agree not do ungracious and unprofessional things, even if they may profit form it? Unlikely, unless the agreement is from the top down. And some engineers and teachers and mentors may miss the point, and favor malicious tactics in place of building a really good robot.

I’ve been in FIRST long enough to notice. At the Nationals, another team punched out their robot on the bridge, knowing full well they weren’t going to the championships, so neither were we (they didn’t like us that much.) It WILL happen this year too, I am sure of that.

Rookies also (by nature) build general simpler robots, because they don't know the ropes. They would, being new to FIRST be natural teams to push the envelope of what is legal and what isn’t.
Thankfully, FIRST states that putting a black plastic tarp over the opposing alliance station is illegal. (Real question, also brought up by a freshman on my team.) This goes to show how many evil or unprofessional alternatives there are to building excellent robots.

*********

If experienced and rookie teams make some sort of pact to not turn FIRST into Battlebots, by not participated in such behavior, than that would held remedy the situation. An unspoken rule of gracious professionalism and morals can save this year. I probably won’t happen, but as ladies and gentlemen, of high moral standing, I think we can, as individuals, do our best to stamp out these actions before they occur, either by boycotting offending teams in the finals, and demonstrating the REAL way to play in FIRST.

For this year, though, I'd stock up on the extra parts and hankies, because it won't be pretty. Robotics in general hasn’t been that much fun this year. Something is lost, but I can't quite know what. It may just be my team, but perhaps it’s something more. The End of Elegance, how sadly true. reminds me of that old Don Henley song. End of Innocence.

Speaking for myself, I really don't want this year to become like that match 2 years ago. I hope that the referees crack down hard on that behavior before it becomes a major issue. This ruling, however, promotes that, and is against what I had though FIRST stood for. Now, I not so sure.

Sorry if I rambled, I just needed to get this off my chest. It's been a long and dark six weeks at team 303.


Yours truly,

--Ben Mitchell
As always, representing himself and not his team
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Unread 01-02-2002, 18:57
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Re: I wouldn't object IF...

Quote:
Originally posted by ChrisH
there was a halfway reasonable chance of actually getting something worked on at an "official" event machine shop.

Our first year I personally waited for several hours at Nationals for a fifteen minute job to be done. It seems the team that got there ahead of me needed their entire frame rewelded. We missed a practice session as a result. Fortunately that was all we missed. This was at the best shop I ever saw at a competition.

I don't know about other venues but here in LA you can expect to NOT have ANY machine shop availability UNLESS there are some drastic changes from last year. Fortunately we didn't need shop services, but there are some pretty ugly stories from those who did.


This is exactly the reason why I suggest FIRST modify the rules... I do not believe all the teams will be able to do the necessary repair or manufacture the replacement parts on site at competition. It is one thing to have to share the shop between 10 teams... It is totally different if we are sharing the shop with 40 other teams.

No, I don't believe teams will be going around trying to damage robots... But Yes, I do believe accidents will happen due to the nature of this year's game. Especially rookies and second year team.

As I said: It is unfortunate that teams will be penalized just because they didn't know better about building a really strong robot for competition, and have no chance to learn about that at the actual competition and fix it...

Also, Learning to repair your robot, and improve it after watching the competition and other robots, is a really valuable learning experience. A lot of teams have benefit from that by going to competition, experience the matches, talk to other teams, and learn whatever they can from all the people around. I don't see that happening if teams are waiting 4 hours a day to get in the machine shop, and the rest of the team sitting in the pit waiting with a damaged robot.

My main reason for asking a modification is this. With this year's rule and on-site machine shop capabilities, FIRST seems to be saying to teams: "So your robot is broken. If the machine shop can't fix it, well, too bad. Your robot will have to remain broken all the way to the end." I think teams deserve a bigger chance than this, especially rookie and second year teams.

I hope FIRST will be able to change a little bit of the rule... Even if it's only allowing teams to go back to their headquarters during the three day of regionals to make spare parts. At least that will shorten the waiting line at on-site machine shop for teams who can't get back to their headquarter.
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Unread 01-02-2002, 21:51
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I've read through this entire thread. Everyone makes some good point here or there.

Personally, I consider the football analogy to be the most disgusting thing in this whole issue.
Football and Gracious Professionalism are mutually exclusive philosophies.

By making this ruling, it is now now FIRSTs responsibility to ensure that the machine shops at all competitions have the capability and manpower to handle any machining work that went in to the creation of each and every robot. If you are going to tie our hands behind our backs, then you are going to have to feed us.

Consider this a possible solution. If the machine shop at the competitions are unable to support the machining of repair parts, for whatever reason be it lack of capability or time, then FIRST should put in place a process allowing a team to waiver the rule within some reasonable limits. What would be a reasonable limit? The Tuesday ship to the drayage time limit sounds very fair. Or going to an off-site machine shop that can handle the work.
I'm sure others might have more or better suggestions on this subject.
Let's hear the suggestions for fixing this. We've already heard about how much it stinks.

Additionally, I also feel strongly that it is up to the mentors on all teams to ensure that the drivers and operators of their robots understand the importance this year of good sportsmanship. No excuses about getting "caught up in the heat of the battle". This can be as much of a mental game as a physical game. It's up to us to decide how to play it.

Well, this has turned in to a bit more than 2 cents worth. I hope it will help someone think up a solution to the problem.
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Unread 01-02-2002, 22:50
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I do not like this rule. What is the point in placing all these restrictions? It isn't fun when you're a student, go to a competition, have a little part break in the first match and your season is over. Meanwhile there is a machine shop down the road you can go to and you could be back in the competition in hours.

However, I don't think this is a major deal. This just means MAKE SPARES of all custom parts!

- Patrick
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Unread 01-02-2002, 22:53
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Quote:
Originally posted by patrickrd

However, I don't think this is a major deal. This just means MAKE SPARES of all custom parts!

- Patrick
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Unread 02-02-2002, 00:35
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Would any of you like a little cheese?

Quote:
Originally posted by Warren Boudreau
Personally, I consider the football analogy to be the most disgusting thing in this whole issue.
Football and Gracious Professionalism are mutually exclusive philosophies.
What does this mean? Football is a contact sport, yes, and a rough one, and so will this game be, but there is nothing inherently graceless or unprofessional about either of them.

The essence of engineering is to take what is given in a situation, and make the best possible solution out of it. If my job requires me to build a robot to help an astronaut, wishing that I could build a giant car crushing robot instead doesn't get me any closer to my goal. Similarly, whining and complaining about a percieved loss of elegance does nothing to advance either your solution to the problem or the game in general. Granted, I haven't been around the game as long as many of you - last year was my first - but the spirit of FIRST is unchanged from last year. We are still out to teach high school students what engineering and professionalism are all about, and there is already too much whining and negativism in the workplace. We don't need to perpetuate it by showing examples of this behavior in response to a game.

Know now that everyone's robot will have at least one crisis during the competition. You can either fix your robot and help those teams that need the help fix theirs, or you can stand around and wish that you could take the robot back home and fix it in your shop. One course of action will allow you to keep competing, and one will not.
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Unread 02-02-2002, 00:50
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Here here.
I agree with you verdeyw. Lets make our point known, and then get back to work.
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Unread 02-02-2002, 12:17
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Re: Would any of you like a little cheese?

Quote:
Originally posted by verdeyw


What does this mean? Football is a contact sport, yes, and a rough one, and so will this game be, but there is nothing inherently graceless or unprofessional about either of them.
Winning isn't everything. It's the only thing. - Vince Lombardi
One statistic that is most useful in tracking the success of an offensive lineman is pancake blocks. This is where you flatten the defensive lineman and lay on top of them until the play is over.
Football is very enjoyable to both watch and play, but I wouldn't exactly call it graceful. I also wouldn't look at many of the legal actions in Football as being professional in any other setting.

Quote:
Originally posted by verdeyw


Similarly, whining and complaining about a percieved loss of elegance does nothing to advance either your solution to the problem or the game in general. Granted, I haven't been around the game as long as many of you - last year was my first - but the spirit of FIRST is unchanged from last year. We are still out to teach high school students what engineering and professionalism are all about, and there is already too much whining and negativism in the workplace. We don't need to perpetuate it by showing examples of this behavior in response to a game.
FIRST does read this forum. FIRST does listen to teams' inputs at the end of the season. FIRST has made rule changes due to the unforeseen effects on teams. However, you can rest assured that no rule will change if FIRST is unaware of any adverse effects. While I am not advocating complaining about each and every rule, when a rule of this magnitude is made, FIRST needs to realize the impact it will have.

Quote:
Originally posted by verdeyw


Know now that everyone's robot will have at least one crisis during the competition. You can either fix your robot and help those teams that need the help fix theirs, or you can stand around and wish that you could take the robot back home and fix it in your shop.
Many teams will have crises this year due to broken parts. Again, I wish it were as simple as you said. And yet, the reality is that many teams will probably not be able to continue competing. Many teams do not have the budget to build several spares of each and every part, nor will they be able to accurately predict exactly which parts will fail in this high-impact football-like game. I expect we will need to make many repairs to our robot, and I also expect our team will be helping as much as we can, but you're living in a dream world if you think that several teams won't be sidelined due to this ruling.
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Unread 02-02-2002, 13:59
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Quote:
Originally posted by Knute Rockne
And the last thing he said to me -- "Rock," he said - "sometime, when the team is up against it -- and the breaks are beating the boys -- tell them to go out there with all they got and win just one for the Gipper.... I don't know where I'll be then, Rock", he said - "but I'll know about it - and I'll be happy."
Quote:
Originally posted by kevin_308
One statistic that is most useful in tracking the success of an offensive lineman is pancake blocks. This is where you flatten the defensive lineman and lay on top of them until the play is over.
A pancake block is graceful - it doesn't happen through brute force. It happens when an offensive lineman catches a defensive lineman off guard. It happens through quickness, not meanness. And it is an example of the teamwork that is required in this year's game, but absent in last year's. Last year a single great robot, assisted by 3 others that could move without dying, could score big. This year, those robots have to be able to actually push things around to make a difference. Bulldozer bots are an improvement over remote control cars.

Quote:
Originally posted by kevin_308
FIRST does read this forum. FIRST does listen to teams' inputs at the end of the season. FIRST has made rule changes due to the unforeseen effects on teams. However, you can rest assured that no rule will change if FIRST is unaware of any adverse effects.
And FIRST evidently noticed some adverse effects which led to the creation of this ruling. There is no reason that, because a team is nearby to three regionals and can afford to go to them, that it should be able to have an extra two and a half weeks with their robot.
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Unread 02-02-2002, 20:11
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I was discussing this thread with the team today and I might have to retract part of my objection to the footbal analogy. Here is a point made by one of my football playing student/mentors. In football, you block, you shove. You get penalized for holding (aka grabbing the opponent). Okay FIRST, you want to use the football analogy, you had better outlaw holding or grabbing. Pushing/blocking is legal, holding/grabbing shouldn't be.
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Unread 03-02-2002, 16:44
Unsung FIRST Hero
Al Skierkiewicz Al Skierkiewicz is offline
Broadcast Eng/Chief Robot Inspector
AKA: Big Al WFFA 2005
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Well, there seems to be a lot of very heated discussion here over this issue. I hope that FIRST will come around and realize that this decision breaks down one of the fundamental beliefs in "gracious professionalism", i.e. helping out other teams. How many veteran teams have helped out rookies or even other veteran teams when a defective design broke down during a competition. How often have I been told "it is more important to compete than to win". It is for this reason our adult advisors make ourselves available during competitions to help other teams. We have literally helped many teams over the years (and have been helped), and those teams were able redesign, or rebuild a broken robot and compete. The students of those teams getting the opportunity to see first hand "gracious professionalism" at it's greatest and getting the chance to compete. How many times have other teams even taken a time-out to allow us to make repairs or mount up a spare even though they were the opposition team/alliance.
To allow some work on redesign helps everyone achieve their best without harming the "level playing field" concept. The few days available in the past helped maximize the experience for the students. Considering that some teams will not compete at nationals, there should be some leeway in this ruling to insure maximum effort by each team and minimal interfernce/damage.
Let's remember that this program is designed to give students a positive experience and demonstrate cooperation even between competing corporations working towards a common goal.
Good Luck All,
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Al
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www.wildstang.org
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