Go to Post There's 2 things that are really hard in CS - naming things, cache invalidation, and off by one errors. - Andrew Schreiber [more]
Home
Go Back   Chief Delphi > FIRST > General Forum
CD-Media   CD-Spy  
portal register members calendar search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read FAQ rules

 
Reply
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #1   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 17-03-2002, 07:41
Ken Leung's Avatar Unsung FIRST Hero
Ken Leung Ken Leung is offline
Dare to Live!
FRC #0115 (Monta Vista Robotics Team)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: May 2001
Rookie Year: 1999
Location: Palo Alto, California
Posts: 2,390
Ken Leung has a reputation beyond reputeKen Leung has a reputation beyond reputeKen Leung has a reputation beyond reputeKen Leung has a reputation beyond reputeKen Leung has a reputation beyond reputeKen Leung has a reputation beyond reputeKen Leung has a reputation beyond reputeKen Leung has a reputation beyond reputeKen Leung has a reputation beyond reputeKen Leung has a reputation beyond reputeKen Leung has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to Ken Leung
Question What's the best qualifying rounds strategy?

After watching quite a few regionals, I realize a lot of important machines in the finals didn't really do too well in qualifying rounds.

I remember team SPAM and MiM at KSC weren't up at top 8, and happens to get paired up together by one of the top 8, and won the regional. I also remember yesterday when GRT got picked as the third partner, and ended up playing both matches in the championship finals, and won the regional because they were able to hold on two goals consistently.

Some times good robots got into top 8, some other times they didn't. A lot of times robots that deserved to go in the finals do get in, but I remember a few who didn't.

So, for all you strategy people out there, what do you think is the best strategy for playing the qualifying rounds?

Well, a lot of times we thought that playing the best we can is enough. Turns out the standings depended a lot on luck, and the way teams are paired up.

There are cases where really strong teams like HOT team and Baxter Bomb squad got to be #1 seed because their machines are excellent for this competition, and they played the best they could. So, I wonder, what's their strategy for qualifying matches?

Other teams that tried really hard to do their best in qualifying rounds, didn't got good seedings even though they have a really good machine for this competition... For those teams, I wonder what they did wrong in their strategy? What should they have done instead?


How do teams decide if they should play the best during matches to score highest for both alliance, or should they perform an operation consistently to prove to teams out there that they can be a great alliance partner?

Scouting is supposed to tell teams which robot is great for alliance partners... But how many teams actually did that?

So many variables, so little matches in qualifying rounds, and only 1.5 days to do all these....
Reply With Quote
  #2   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 17-03-2002, 08:44
meaubry meaubry is offline
volunteer helper
FRC #6099 (Knights)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Rookie Year: 1997
Location: Shelby Twp, Mi
Posts: 784
meaubry has a reputation beyond reputemeaubry has a reputation beyond reputemeaubry has a reputation beyond reputemeaubry has a reputation beyond reputemeaubry has a reputation beyond reputemeaubry has a reputation beyond reputemeaubry has a reputation beyond reputemeaubry has a reputation beyond reputemeaubry has a reputation beyond reputemeaubry has a reputation beyond reputemeaubry has a reputation beyond repute
Great Question

Ken,
This is a great question and it also brings to light how important scouting could be when selecting a partner. Teams in seeding matches could just decide to show what they are good at, knowing or coming to the conclusion they will not make the top 8. Teams in seeding matches should also know that the qualifying rounds are not exactly the same game because the strategy to win "is" different. There are many, many variables that come into play during the selection process. Picking teams have to make an extremely important decision - What is the best features that are needed in combination with theirs to win a different game? Picking teams may have features that got them to be a picking team that may not be the best at winning the "new" game that is played in the elimination tourney.
This year, strategy must be considered at the same time as scouting for a great alliance partner. Especially with the rotational alliance rule, where the winning alliance must rotate out one of the teams.
Variables to consider:
Goal grabbers: Multiple vs. One (Can't let the other team get 3, unless you can keep them in your scoring zone)
Speed: Very important feature when considering Multiple goal grabbers, or when trying to keep away from the opposing robot
Agility without a goal: Important if trapping a robot in your scoring zone, or keeping them away from their zone is part of your strategy
Agility with a goal: Only important if the plan is to try and the "keep away and outscore" technique
Power: Very important once the "tug o war" is underway -
"One on one" if the single goal grabber can't keep the other team from latching on the more powerful team wins
"2 teams vs one" looks like 2 probably wins more often than not - given enough time
"2 vs 2" if both sets are evenly matched it boils down to "Time" and "Angles" - Given enough time obviously the stronger team wins, if they have the angle. You can beat a more powerful team if you can keep them from getting the angle needed - this depends on the orientation of their drive wheels, and yours.
CG - Robots tip or can be pulled over, yes even attached to goals
Robustness - its really aggressive in the elim's - parts are falling off everywhere, and selecting a team that won't fall apart under extremely violent conditions will be important.
Current draw - seems like a silly factor, but be careful not to overload the circuit breaker - once tripped, strategy doesn't matter.

Lastly, this year the top 8 teams are also eligible to be picked as partners, but if you turn down the 1st team that selects you, you have to turn down everyone else - so if say you were ranked 7th and the 2nd seeded team picked you, you could say "No thanks", but then none of the rest (3 thru 6) could pick you - You essentially decide at that moment "How important it is" to be in total control of the destiny of the alliance. I wonder how many people would think it would be Politically Incorrect, to turn down another team that is ranked higher than you? So you can be sure to be the one to "Call the shots". I think you put the best combined alliance together whenever possible, and "accept" if asked and you believe you fit well together as a team. This is a very difficult decision, and its an additional issue for teams to think about.
Sorry, about the long post - thought I'd share what I learned in Cleveland, we'll see if it holds true at the Great Lakes Regional next weekend.
Reply With Quote
  #3   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 17-03-2002, 10:08
Dr.Bot
 
Posts: n/a
I think play hard, do your best, don't get fancy or tricky and be
a gracious proffesional is the way to go.

I think in one Lonestar match GRT 192 lost a match because they
scored 10 points for their opponent with the tether! not clear if this was intentional or not. (I saw this on the internet so I might be mistaken) Anyway I think trying to be too fancy in general is not good, but showing off all your special capabilities is probably O.K.

It looks like the ball handlers qualify and do really well !6, 47 ---
(lead seeds)

----but -----

the finals come down to a scrum in the middle and being able to score 20 balls don't mean a thing if there is no goal to put them in. It is too easy to disrupt most ball handlers (you just get in their way)

So If a ball handler qualifyies, they best get some goal control partners. and If a goal contoller qualifyies they do a vice a versa.

This is the stategy 255 used for the 2000 Nats. Strength through diversity.



Well - I like to run off at the mouth. We'll all see if I am blowing
hot air when the San Jose regionals are completed.
Reply With Quote
  #4   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 17-03-2002, 10:58
Unsung FIRST Hero
JVN JVN is offline
@JohnVNeun
AKA: John Vielkind-Neun
FRC #0148 (Robowranglers)
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: May 2001
Rookie Year: 2000
Location: Greenville, Tx
Posts: 3,159
JVN has a reputation beyond reputeJVN has a reputation beyond reputeJVN has a reputation beyond reputeJVN has a reputation beyond reputeJVN has a reputation beyond reputeJVN has a reputation beyond reputeJVN has a reputation beyond reputeJVN has a reputation beyond reputeJVN has a reputation beyond reputeJVN has a reputation beyond reputeJVN has a reputation beyond repute
I'm from Clarkson University team 229, and we were seeded 2nd in Cleveland. Our robot is NOT complex, it is in fact one of the simplest robots out there. We are a ball harverster, we clamp onto one goal and using our giant spinner (the announcer kept describing it as a buffer) we suck balls up into the goal. A simple mechanism, 1 moving part. Our drive was nothing amazing either. However, we seeded 2nd because every match we went into, we knew what we had to do to win. Even when our alliance partner died in 1 match we managed to pull off a win (106 points) alone. Our coach just analyzed the situation and our driver did what he had to do.
We spent a long time debating who to pick, and when it came down to it we chose Chief Delphi because they have an overall strong and versatile robot. Truthfully we expected them to decline, and are THRILLED that they accepted. I'm glad I got the chance to work with the Chiefs. Their bot complemented ours well, and we competed well together. I believe that if they weren't having some electrical problems we could have pulled off another win. As Joe, and the CD drivers will attest, we had a solid strategy, and a strong alliance. We almost beat the 469 alliance at their own game. We also couldn't have done it without the Cheesy Poofs. Their bot was almost perfectly suited for the rougher, more contact oriented finals.

I'm glad I got the chance to work with both of them.
Poofs - Good luck in SoCal
Chiefs - Good luck in Great Lakes (Stay calm Joe, it helps! )

John Vielkind-Neun
Strategy Head and Coach
Team 229 - Clarkson University
Reply With Quote
  #5   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 17-03-2002, 11:03
Adrian Wong Adrian Wong is offline
Registered User
#0596 (SciClones)
Team Role: Alumni
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Rookie Year: 2001
Location: Hopkinton, Mass.
Posts: 146
Adrian Wong is an unknown quantity at this point
Send a message via AIM to Adrian Wong
Question regarding drafting...

Why would any team intentionally decline a draft? Short of catastrophic robot failure (in which case, the drafting team shouldn't have made that pick), I don't see any reason why a team would decline a draft offer. I've only been around FIRST for one year, so if anyone with more experience could give some insight...
Reply With Quote
  #6   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 17-03-2002, 12:45
Kris Verdeyen's Avatar
Kris Verdeyen Kris Verdeyen is offline
LSR Emcee/Alamo Game Announcer
FRC #0118 (Robonauts)
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Rookie Year: 2001
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 699
Kris Verdeyen has a reputation beyond reputeKris Verdeyen has a reputation beyond reputeKris Verdeyen has a reputation beyond reputeKris Verdeyen has a reputation beyond reputeKris Verdeyen has a reputation beyond reputeKris Verdeyen has a reputation beyond reputeKris Verdeyen has a reputation beyond reputeKris Verdeyen has a reputation beyond reputeKris Verdeyen has a reputation beyond reputeKris Verdeyen has a reputation beyond reputeKris Verdeyen has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Great Question

The best qualifying rounds strategy is two goals, two robots, and 1-4 balls beating one goal, one or two robots and 0-10 balls. This is 60 - 120 qual points, and will be near the top at any regional.

That said, Baxter did a great job with their 'one goal, one robot, 25 ball' strategy.
__________________
...Only a few people are awake and they live in a state of constant total amazement. -JP Shanley, Joe vs. the Volcano
Reply With Quote
  #7   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 17-03-2002, 14:29
Chief'sDad Chief'sDad is offline
Registered User
#0047 (Chief Delphi)
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Pontiac, MI
Posts: 25
Chief'sDad is an unknown quantity at this point
re. why would anyone decline

Adrian, an example would be if a #1 seed picked a #5 seed, but the #5 had a different team in mind that they thought would complement their abilities better. Just because a team did well in seeding doesn't mean that they are the team that everyone wants to be paired up with.
Maybe a two goal grabber with bad traction gets picked by a team that has bad traction. If the higher seeded team used bad judgment in picking, the lower seeded team should decline.
Maybe the pick was right for the #1 team, but wrong for the #5 team. They could work with #1, but would work better with #10.
Lot's of variations.
__________________
Once stretched by a new idea, man's mind never returns to its original dimensions.
- Oliver Wendell Holmes
Reply With Quote
  #8   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 17-03-2002, 16:19
Adrian Wong Adrian Wong is offline
Registered User
#0596 (SciClones)
Team Role: Alumni
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Rookie Year: 2001
Location: Hopkinton, Mass.
Posts: 146
Adrian Wong is an unknown quantity at this point
Send a message via AIM to Adrian Wong
But don't the rules state that if you decline, you become ineligible to be drafted under a different alliance? In that case, once you turned down your first draft choice, you couldn't be drafted by your preferred alliance. Or am I reading the rules wrong?
Reply With Quote
  #9   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 17-03-2002, 17:08
John Prather John Prather is offline
Registered User
#0234 (Cyber Blue)
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Perry Meridian
Posts: 11
John Prather is an unknown quantity at this point
Send a message via Yahoo to John Prather
Re: qualify stategy

If your like us you get lucky and get a team like HOT BOT on your alliance, you get one goal, you put 26 balls in that goal, you get both robots in the end zone, and you get a score of 56 to 44 giving you a QP of 132!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

There are a lot of different strategies, you have to find what works the best for your robot, and you have to rely on a little luck that you will get a partner that can help you.
__________________
John Prather
Team 234
Student/Electronics/Controls/Programs/Scouting Team

Last edited by John Prather : 17-03-2002 at 17:12.
Reply With Quote
  #10   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 17-03-2002, 17:32
Bob92 Bob92 is offline
Registered User
no team
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: none
Posts: 24
Bob92 is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally posted by Adrian Wong
But don't the rules state that if you decline, you become ineligible to be drafted under a different alliance? In that case, once you turned down your first draft choice, you couldn't be drafted by your preferred alliance. Or am I reading the rules wrong?
The rulea say that if you are among the top 8 (or being an alliance captain) you can decline an offer to join a team and still be eligable to pick your own alliance. But if you are a team that is not among the top 8 or an alliance captain and you decline, then you are not eligible to be drafted on to any team.
Reply With Quote
  #11   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 17-03-2002, 20:33
skyfw skyfw is offline
Registered User
#0201 (Rochester FEDS)
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Rochester, MI
Posts: 5
skyfw is an unknown quantity at this point
Send a message via AIM to skyfw
Qualifying/Finals

Our team was on the winning alliance at the Buckeye regional, and we were seeded 21st, if I recall correctly, might of been 20th. We did very well our first 3 qualifying matches, but then got a few bad partners, and got into a few interesting places where our robot was basically pinned in one spot, and couldn't get out Our qualifying strat was basically to get two goals, take one back to fill it will balls via the human player, and then drop the filled goal back with the second robot, who had the other goal (one of us would each get a goal). Then whomever had 2 goal capability would take both goals, and the other team would go home we won 4 matches this way, with about 80-90 or so points each match. The big reason we got picked for the finals was this. Team #859 was the 4th? seed after qualifying, and we played their third pick in our second to last qualifying match. In the qualifying match we ended up dragging a goal with their third pick (Team 94, if I recall) still attached to it, and their arm snapped off their robot. So they ended up choosing us, because they liked the display of strength, and their third pick didn't have a functioning arm for the finals. Qualifying is a lot like last year, with some of it being based on who you are paired with, and whom you are against, but most of the good teams can use the matches to get into the finals, either with a high seed, or just with a good showing.
__________________
Building the future, today.
Reply With Quote
  #12   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 19-03-2002, 17:41
Perseus's Avatar
Perseus Perseus is offline
Takin' a Break from FIRST
no team
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Atlanta
Posts: 204
Perseus is an unknown quantity at this point
the best strategy for the QR's would be to grab to goals and fill them with balls and let the other team get a goal(maybe help them with balls)

However, that won tbe the best strategy for the elimination rounds. it all depends. e decided to come up with a strategy that would win in the elimination rounds. We are no even in the top 40 at VCU but were still the first pick. Now, we didnt win the regional but i believe that there were two kinds of robots that you could build: one that would do well in Qualification matches and place or gt on that would be good for elimination rounds.

Dont get me wrong; there are some that can do both
__________________
The Few
The Proud
The Zoroastrians
Reply With Quote
  #13   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 19-03-2002, 17:58
Jessi's Avatar
Jessi Jessi is offline
Registered User
#0234 (Cyber Blue)
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Indianapolis, Indiana
Posts: 34
Jessi is an unknown quantity at this point
Send a message via AIM to Jessi
like people said before it is really two different games in regards to the qual. rounds and the finals. i think that in the finals ball grabbers are really not necessary. my team did a ball grabbing robot but then we had to find goal grabbers instead of other ball robots. again like it was said before the whole goal in the finals is to get goals and whats the point of having a ball grabber if you dont have a goal to put it in.

jessi amt
team 234
Reply With Quote
  #14   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 19-03-2002, 18:44
Dr.Bot
 
Posts: n/a
This was illustrated perfectly at Buckeye and LoneStar where Teams 47 and 16 were top seeded super ball grabbers but in the end lost to goal controllers. It is possible for a ball machine o win the elimination if they have a partner hat can control at leas one goal. They then could score balls and a goal or maybe just balls and robots. But they have to control or neutralize at least one goal - the advantage goes to the team that can control two goals with one robot, because they have
a second robot to either work one goal, or harry the ball handler. A tether machine might be able to
beat a 2 goal handler alliance without tethers.


So the best machine might not win but the alliance that plays the best will win.
Reply With Quote
  #15   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 19-03-2002, 19:22
Natchez Natchez is offline
Registered User
#0118 (Robonauts)
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Houston
Posts: 189
Natchez has a reputation beyond reputeNatchez has a reputation beyond reputeNatchez has a reputation beyond reputeNatchez has a reputation beyond reputeNatchez has a reputation beyond reputeNatchez has a reputation beyond reputeNatchez has a reputation beyond reputeNatchez has a reputation beyond reputeNatchez has a reputation beyond reputeNatchez has a reputation beyond reputeNatchez has a reputation beyond repute
Sorry Baxter!

"Illustrated perfectly" may be a weeeeeeeeeeeeeeee bit too strong. Baxter was the number one seed and picked the number four seed that had put two goals into the scoring zone 9 out of 9 times in the qualifying rounds. By the time Baxter got to the finals, team 118 was 11 of 11 in two goal domination. In the finals, team 118 blew a drive train and let the Bombers down. More specifically, team 118 made a 1/2" steel axle look like overcooked spaghetti (pic) ... not very straight, huh. We bent the axle hours before we shipped and since we could not make spare parts after 5:00 on ship day, we did not have time to make a spare one. We did the best we could to bend it back but Murphy caught up with us in the finals.

Since the Lone Star Regional, we have new axles with all KNOWN problems solved.

Sorry Baxter & see y'all in Mickey-land,
Team 118

P.S. Any one-legged robot is going to have a tough time in the finals.
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
More teams in the elimination rounds DougHogg General Forum 16 27-04-2003 16:11
Is FIRST Encouraging Uncompetitive Winners? Tony General Forum 35 27-03-2003 19:09
Rules of Engagement and "Unfair Competition" Richard Neese General Forum 2 24-03-2003 13:03
The Society for More Qualifying Rounds archiver 1999 47 23-06-2002 22:05
"Regional Competition Edition" of Fresh From the Forum Ken Leung CD Forum Support 5 21-03-2002 08:21


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:17.

The Chief Delphi Forums are sponsored by Innovation First International, Inc.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © Chief Delphi