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  #61   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 01-06-2004, 01:12
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Re: FIRST Competition Entry Fee Increases for 2005

Frankly, I don't think the 40 person teams out there are going to be the ones that will have problems with this. Again, this fee increase will hit the smaller, poorer teams the hardest, while the bigger teams with big sponsors won't have many problems with it. My biggest problem with the increase is that it's rather like a regressive tax. A team that goes to just one regional for the whole season sees a 20% increase in cost. A team that goes to 3 regionals sees a less than 10% increase in costs. So... Big teams with lots of money don't have much trouble with the increase, while small struggling teams have to struggle even more. Like I've said, this particular fee structure will just make it harder to get and keep rookie teams, and will make it harder to spread the program. At some point, teams and sponsors will start looking at other programs like BEST as a better bang for the buck.
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Unread 01-06-2004, 01:57
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Re: FIRST Competition Entry Fee Increases for 2005

OK... this just dawned on me… Many people are saying "The entry fee doesn't go to pay for the regionals, it pays for the KOP and the people in Manchester."

Well, then, does this mean that Dave, Woodie, Dean, et. al. will be making a major change in the KOP for the 2004-2005 season? Does this mean that we will be seeing a major new component, electronic or something radical, which will make sweeping changes to the game? And FIRST needs this extra $1,000 to pay for it? (or maybe it costs $500 but they need more money to pay for overhead?)

Yes, maybe FIRST wants us to think that the fee increase is going to support more infrastructure back at the HQ... But, what if we think outside the box?
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Unread 01-06-2004, 08:47
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Re: FIRST Competition Entry Fee Increases for 2005

First I like to say that FIRST did a great job in getting this out to the teams now so we can plan on it. In the past FIRST wouldn't let you know until the last min.

Second we have been around a long time and we have seen them raise there prices before. and always people have to give there 2 cents about why.

This is what I can't understand. Why can a place like Bean town Bliz put on a great after market competition for only $250. The pits were better than UCF regionals. the thought of bringing in the robots like we did was the best I have ever seen at a competition.

I have read in the past about what FIRST what to put across to everybody. And how they want to make the show so much better. But what I have seen in the past 10 years is the same in the competition side. Maybe a little less now that there isn't a party after some of these regional.

If it is the cost of the kits that is going up then find lets pay more for that. but the cost of putting a competition on has gone up that much? Why should the cost for the national be more? The hotel cost always have been cheapper on your own. They deals FIRST comes up with are so much more for less sometimes.

If the cost of getting a place like the GA dome is that much more then find every team pays the same that want to go. Don't say by paying more for the national the hotel cost will be less.

Let the entry fee for the first regional be the big cost then have the Nationals be a lot less. You are not getting parts, only a place to play. I would thinkt the cost of the parts would be much more.


So to do 1 regional and the National the entry fees would be $11,000. If FIRST does not think that is a lot of money then they better go back to the drawing board. You are talking about high schools. Yes there are companys out there that would love to help and pay but htose are becoming far and few.

I would like to here from teams that the mentor/teacher has been around for 10 or more years. these are the people that have put in the time and heart into FIRST. Becuase I here these other people talk about how hard it is and how much time they have spent, try doing that over ten years and still keep going. We always go through this hardship. about money. I almost didn't have a team becuase of money and how well we have gotten the word out. there are more teams with a 15 mile of our school that take up a lot of our resourses.


This is not the FIRST time they have raised the money and it will not be the last time. I just hope FIRST goes out and Makes the world know who FIRST is, so it would be easier to go out and get money.
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Unread 01-06-2004, 08:48
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Re: FIRST Competition Entry Fee Increases for 2005

FIRST ran a deficit this year and no organization, including non-profit, should be running that way. The best senario is a break even budget. I believe that FIRST needes this money to cover expenses and allow for growth.

As for the cost of Championship going up, you must realize that a big portion of the early years was subsudized by Disney. They could not continue with their level of "sponsership" so we went to Houston and now Altlanta. These venues cost money.

Also not mentioned is the drayage costs, fields and development. I read earlier in someones post the cost of these items. BTB does not have all of these things to deal with. For the Wonderland event this week the cost to ship the field is $6,000.00 CDN. For Championships they had to ship 5 fields plus spare parts to Atlanta and then back to New Hampshire. These things are not cheap. You also need to take into account the cost to design and build the 5 fields and spare parts.
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Unread 01-06-2004, 09:58
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Re: FIRST Competition Entry Fee Increases for 2005

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sean Schuff
Here's another twist to the discussion...

What are YOU willing to pay to stay involved in FIRST Robotics?

Sean
I would be willing to pay that, and much much much more. FIRST is that important.
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Unread 01-06-2004, 10:27
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Re: FIRST Competition Entry Fee Increases for 2005

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hinkel Y.
There's one question, should there be a cap of how much money one team can recieve from their sponsors? And if sponsors are willing to give more money, should the money over the cap be given to FIRST and be evenly spread across to regionals and/or other FIRST expenses?
I'm going to take this idea and tweak it.

Suppose we ("we" being defined as either FIRST or the FIRST community) started the "pot." If a team has more money than they conceivably need (I'll even spot them building a nice cart with spinners on the wheels), then they can chip money into the pot on their own free will with no pressure. (I'm against guilt-tripping teams into chipping, since it is THEIR money, which they worked to get.)

So then if team 3.1415926 hits a really hard crunch (sponsor pulls out, head fundraiser gets sidelined, etc.), they then can apply for help from the pot, enough to get entered into the season, plus perhaps a few dollars to help build.

I guess the preference would be to have this as a boost (say $2000-3000), not as a full-on payment to get teams into the competition for a regional and such. I don't know how it'd work exactly, but if you know more about this, then feel free to run with it.
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Unread 01-06-2004, 10:30
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Re: FIRST Competition Entry Fee Increases for 2005

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Norton
First I like to say that FIRST did a great job in getting this out to the teams now so we can plan on it. This is what I can't understand. Why can a place like Bean town Bliz put on a great after market competition for only $250. The pits were better than UCF regionals. the thought of bringing in the robots like we did was the best I have ever seen at a competition.
...
If it is the cost of the kits that is going up then find lets pay more for that. but the cost of putting a competition on has gone up that much? Why should the cost for the national be more?
...
I would like to here from teams that the mentor/teacher has been around for 10 or more years. these are the people that have put in the time and heart into FIRST. Becuase I here these other people talk about how hard it is and how much time they have spent, try doing that over ten years and still keep going. We always go through this hardship. about money. I almost didn't have a team becuase of money and how well we have gotten the word out. there are more teams with a 15 mile of our school that take up a lot of our resourses.

This is not the FIRST time they have raised the money and it will not be the last time. I just hope FIRST goes out and Makes the world know who FIRST is, so it would be easier to go out and get money.
Here are a couple of thoughts:

It's not FIRST's job to "go out and makes the world know", it's ours. The teams are responsible for this. After being in FIRST for 13 years, our team has learned that. Teams who have been in FIRST for a long time should not think that they are entitled to handouts from FIRST. We veteran teams are the backbone of FIRST and we should be there, leading by example. We should not have this attitude that "FIRST owes us".

We are one of those teams who has a big sponsor who takes care of us well. Our students still fundraise (about $270 each last year), but we realize that we have a great sponsor.

There are various reasons why our sponsor sticks with us. I believe that one of the main reasons they support us so well is that our team represents them extremely well. While we compete hard, Delphi is always proud of our sportsmanship and grace. They see us helping other teams. When a FIRSTer is asked about the TechnoKats, they respond positively about the team and about Delphi. Our management seems to like that.

So, we have alterior motives for our "niceness". We want to keep our sponsor happy.

Whenever we attend a FIRST competition, we always remind the team that we are representing Kokomo High School, Delphi, Ivy Tech and the city of Kokomo. The team ALWAYS represents well. Even if we don't compete as well as we should, we realize that we are a team that others look up to and we need to put on a good showing. Other teams who have been around for many years have this same responsibility.

As for "why does Beantown Blitz only cost $250?" You are comparing apples and oranges here. Each field costs $40,000. BTB got it for only the cost of shipping. A travelling crew of experts setup and run the field and a/v system at each FIRST regional. This is not present at off-season events. This crew essentially trained those of us who run these off-season events in how to run the event. Also, there is no shipping and drayage costs at an off-season event like there are at a regular regional. Since regular regionals bring in experts (event managers, scorekeepers, head refs, etc.) to run their events efficiently, that adds to the costs. Again, this is not a cost at an off-season event.

Also, keep in mind that our entry fee is NOT going to run the event. Our team fees run FIRST. We pay the salaries, build the fields, pay for the facility, pay for game development, pay for stuff in the kit, and we pay for FIRST's operating expenses.

Regional costs are different. Regionals run on a budget from $150-$200,000 (I think). The difference between this cost and an off-season event's cost is large, but it is because of various reasons. Most of these reasons are derived from a directive of the FIRST Board of Directors (I am paraphrasing here, so bear with me). The Board says that "all FIRST competitions must be conducted consistently". Due to this, FIRST builds the fields, sends a crew out to set up the fields and a professionals a/v system, pays for "experts" to run the events, pays for high quality venues, and drayage/shipping issues.

A way to increase the # of competitions and decrease cost would be to give more attention to the non-official FIRST "scrimmages" that take place right before the ship date. If teams put on more of these events, other teams will be able to play at a lower cost.

Andy B.

Last edited by Andy Baker : 01-06-2004 at 10:41.
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Unread 01-06-2004, 10:31
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Re: FIRST Competition Entry Fee Increases for 2005

The cost goes up...Where do I start?

I have been the teacher/fundraiser/coach for Zeeland for 9 years. Each year money is a problem. We raise our $20,000.00 (I hope) spend it all and start the next year at 0. Money is ALWAYS an issue for us. The price goes up so we will have to deal with it if we want to play.

The biggest problem I see with the increase is that it will slow the growth of FIRST. Mentors, how many times have you told a non-FIRST person what it costs to run a team and they say "What? Are you crazy"? When we try to grow teams in West Michigan I hate to tell them about the cost too early in the process. The high cost of the program is an easy excuse for someone to not start a team.

I know it costs money to run FIRST. I think the FIRST community can help cut some of the costs and I hope that FIRST (the organization) asks us for help. How can the Bean Town Blitz or the IRI run events and only charge a few hundred dollars for entry fees? We ran an event called "Unfinished Business" a few years ago, I know it takes tons of work to run a local event, but it is not impossible. These "smaller" events can help FIRST to figure out what the next decade will look like for the organization. Should we expect the regionals to be so big? Can we have weekend competitions that are more local and less expensive that will lead to state championships then national championships? Some big changes at the state level could make a big difference.

What about that kit of parts? Zeeland has tubs of wheels, motors, wire...etc that we have never used. I am sure that we can find a better way to do the kit of parts that will be fair (I hate that word) for all of us and cheaper for FIRST.

I will be at the mentor forum tonight, I hope we can talk about the cost issue and see how we can keep the program growing. I don't think that higher fees are the answer.

Take care
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Unread 01-06-2004, 11:10
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Re: FIRST Competition Entry Fee Increases for 2005

Quote:
It's not FIRST's job to "go out and makes the world know", it's ours.
There is a difference between me going out and Dean K. going out. When you have he CEO going out to spread the word people listen. Then it is up to the team to bring that to the attention of the local people and companys



Quote:
We are one of those teams who has a big sponsor who takes care of us well. Our students still fundraise (about $270 each last year), but we realize that we have a great sponsor.

That is good that you have that. If you do not think other teams do the same thing about trying to keep the companies they all ready have you will be wrong. Sometimes you can do everything right but the companies just can't come up with that amount of money every year. our kids have to raise $500 each. I have to raise $40,000 each year


Quote:
Regional costs are different. Regionals run on a budget from $150-$200,000 (I think). The difference between this cost and an off-season event's cost is large, but it is because of various reasons. Most of these reasons are derived from a directive of the FIRST Board of Directors (I am paraphrasing here, so bear with me). The Board says that "all FIRST competitions must be conducted consistently". Due to this, FIRST builds the fields, sends a crew out to set up the fields and a professionals a/v system, pays for "experts" to run the events, pays for high quality venues, and drayage/shipping issues
If I am not mistaken the Regionals are paid by the Sponsor venue.


If First is having problem paying for thing they should look to teams like yourself which had a field already made that FIRST could use. this would save money
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Unread 01-06-2004, 12:27
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Re: FIRST Competition Entry Fee Increases for 2005

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Yasick
What about that kit of parts? Zeeland has tubs of wheels, motors, wire...etc that we have never used. I am sure that we can find a better way to do the kit of parts that will be fair (I hate that word) for all of us and cheaper for FIRST.
This and the other post related to kit expenses got me thinking. We know there are a few required items, e.g. control system, speed controllers, motors, etc. But what if the rest of the kits were a-la-carte? It may be a logistical nightmare, but what if only core components were packaged for the "kit" at kickoff? Teams could then order parts as needed, like extra motors, pneumatics, sensors, and such. I know a few teams who have stockpiles of pneumatics, motors, optical sensors, gyros, etc. from previous years, unused but still paid for as part of the kit. Even if it's only a few hundred dollars saved, it will still help. I also know there's a bunch of issues with this sort of thing, but it's an idea which may be worth considering, especially to smaller, less funded teams who really need the money.
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Unread 01-06-2004, 15:13
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Re: FIRST Competition Entry Fee Increases for 2005

Aren't smaller teams generally newer and using more of the kit? If so, such an idea would have a reverse effect.

[edit]Cool idea, though. Have x amount of funds to pick stuff out? What if it was on site? That could be fun...[/edit]

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Unread 01-06-2004, 15:27
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Re: FIRST Competition Entry Fee Increases for 2005

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Norton
If First is having problem paying for thing they should look to teams like yourself which had a field already made that FIRST could use. this would save money
Except they are called practice fields for a reason.
  • The quality of these fields is not garunteed.
  • They probably don't have the tech intended for the game. People would have to come in and retro fit them with the field controlers, sensors, mechanisms, etc. This could be more costly than just shipping one in (and they would have to do it on about 15 fields)
  • FIRST still needs 5 fields for the championship.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peciv
Well, then, does this mean that Dave, Woodie, Dean, et. al. will be making a major change in the KOP for the 2004-2005 season? Does this mean that we will be seeing a major new component, electronic or something radical, which will make sweeping changes to the game? And FIRST needs this extra $1,000 to pay for it? (or maybe it costs $500 but they need more money to pay for overhead?)
That could very well be. I've heard rumors that FIRST may change the control system again, but common sense says that they just got this one and want to get some years out of it. So maybe they are adding something big. Could be the enhancement already came.

Did the developement of the C control system cost more than they thought? Would explain why it was so early.
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Unread 01-06-2004, 16:29
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Re: FIRST Competition Entry Fee Increases for 2005

I may have missed this in the posts above, but no one bothered to mention the Additional Team Grants. The quote below is from the email being discussed in this thread:
"What are the additional team grants?
FIRST is creating an additional pool of $200,000 for team grants for teams in need to offset the challenge created by the increase in the registration fees. This will be in addition to the team grants offered through the FIRST Underserved Initiative and through sponsors such as NASA. We will communicate the parameters and procedures for applying for these new grants as soon as they are available."

If you want to know what FIRST is doing with this money, read the entire email and they tell us exactly what they are doing. If there are 1000 teams this year and each have to pay $1000 more then 1/5 of that money is going straight back to those teams who are in need.
Many people on this board complain that teams have a lot more money than others, and I agree that this is true. To me it looks like FIRST is once again listening and trying to even the playing field by charging everyone a larger fee, but giving some back to the teams who don’t have major sponsorship. I see it as a steal from the rich; give to the poor type of thing.

On the topic of paying out of pocket for FIRST participation I would prefer to see people not do it, but usually think of it more as an investment. After participating in FIRST for 5 years, I have paid out of pocket for travel to 4 nationals, 4 Regionals, and other off-season competitions. What have I gotten back from all of this? More than 10 times that value in scholarships and jobs (And that’s just the dollars). Although it is better to have sponsors investing in your future, at an extra $50 per person (20 student team), I would say it’s worth it.

Eric
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Unread 01-06-2004, 16:40
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Re: FIRST Competition Entry Fee Increases for 2005

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Norton
There is a difference between me going out and Dean K. going out. When you have he CEO going out to spread the word people listen. Then it is up to the team to bring that to the attention of the local people and companys

That is good that you have that. If you do not think other teams do the same thing about trying to keep the companies they all ready have you will be wrong. Sometimes you can do everything right but the companies just can't come up with that amount of money every year. our kids have to raise $500 each. I have to raise $40,000 each year

If First is having problem paying for thing they should look to teams like yourself which had a field already made that FIRST could use. this would save money
Like I said above, FIRST uses official fields in order to maintain consistency throughout all the regionals. This keeps things level and fair for all teams at each regional. As for our team, we did not build a field this year. We only had a partial field, just as many other teams did.

As for wanting Dean to go there are get sponsors for FIRST... HE ALREADY DOES THAT! If you EVER listen to Dean at ANY non-FIRST event, he is always talking about FIRST. You expect more? Also, the CEO's who are already involved in FIRST seem fairly committed to me.

My point is this: no one owes us a thing. We pay our entry fee and we sign up for this contest. If any one team went away, FIRST would go on fine without them. It is up to us to go out and get our own sponsorship and take care of ourselves. Also, teams who have been in FIRST a darn long time have an added burden of helping out other teams, not acting like they are entitled for benefits and breaks.

just an opinion,
Andy B.
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Re: FIRST Competition Entry Fee Increases for 2005

I'm pretty pressed to see that happening, but I bet there's a simpler solution, one you kinda see at regionals anyway. Wait a week or two after kickoff, then invite a bunch of teams for a big FIRST swap meet. You get rid of those extra kit parts that you know you won't use, but you get more of what you need. (Probably wouldn't have been bad to have some more window motors for us...we coulda used some spares for driving!)

And of course, there's always bringing back old stuff from prior kits that can still be used.
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