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Unread 04-04-2002, 12:10
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Re: Re: Unless someone knows for sure ....

Quote:
Originally posted by falco269


Or we could just argue and speculate endlessly until the divisions are annouced, giving us something to pass the time until then.
Isn't that what this board is for after the build season?

I'm just kidding....kinda
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Unread 04-04-2002, 13:19
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Re: Unless someone knows for sure ....

Quote:
Originally posted by Katie_93
... Maybe we should just drop this. I'm thinking that, until they announce who is in what division, we're not gonna know how many divisions there are until then. Right now it looks like everyone is just speculating! We'll see, I guess
- Katie

Let's see... I think it goes something like...

"If it wasn't for girls, guys would go around thinking they had no flaws..."

Bah... I say we keep debating!
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Unread 09-04-2002, 16:11
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Dr. Joe adds to the speculation...

I cannot see any way that FIRST could have only 3 divisions in FL.

I have heard that there will only be 4 fields at EPCOT not 5 as there was last year.

I am curious how they are planning on working the 4 divisions. Will each division have a fixed arena or will they rotate them at times?

At first you might think that FIRST would have them all fixed at a particular arena, but this is not quite as easy a you might think. One of the reasons for having Einstein be a floating field was that teams would not have to spend 3 days baking in the sun (which will likely be HOT in late April -- I still shudder when I think back to the Finals of 1998. Brian Beatty & I were almost one drop of sweat away from heat stroke watching Teams #1 & #45 battling it out for king of the puck -- it was HOT).

Beyond the heat factor, the outdoor stage is the high profile stage, so I suppose that FIRST will want to spread the wealth there as well.

I really wonder how they plan to work this out.

As long as I am speculating, I guess that they could just number the stages and give divisions time slots on the various fields (e.g. Friday 9-11 Archimedes on 1, Curie on 2, Newton on 3, Galileo on Einstien, etc.).

I hope they don't go back to the bad old days and run us all over Walt's half acre -- scouting, staging, etc. would be a nightmare.

Joe J.
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Unread 10-04-2002, 23:49
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As the person writing the software, I can answer definitively there will be four (4) divisions. Don't expect them to be named the same as the fields names, despite how it appears on the FIRST site. More information will be coming out soon...

BruceM
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Unread 11-04-2002, 08:41
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Defining Random

As the person who writes FIRST's tourney software, would you please tell us how you randomize the seeding matches?

It seems to a lot of us that things don't seem so random. We often follow the same team for match after match.

I think that it is may be possible to get a fair random set of matches by dividing teams up into random groups and then randomly shuffling the groups to get your pairings, but I am not quite convinced that is what you are doing or that that would provide a random set of pairings in all cases.

So... ...would you mind sharing a bit of the though process you used to make up the matches.

Also, while I am asking, how many seeding rounds do you suppose each team will get?

Finally, how is FIRST going to split up the divisions? Is it going to be random or will they make sure that Kingman and Las Guerrillas are in different divisions (for example)?

Do tell...

Joe J.
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Unread 11-04-2002, 14:40
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One non-randomish thing I noticed at VCU:

Really veteran teams played ONLY with veteran teams. I believe at most, team 7 play in a match with a rookie team in it 3 times.

Rookie teams played with rookie teams, it was the exact same way for rookies...

The guys in the middle....they were the only one's who had a decent mix, but there's *our's* wasn't that good of a mix either...

Maybe it people trying to be fair, but that doesn't seem fair at all.
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Unread 11-04-2002, 16:05
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"(which will likely be HOT in late April -- I still shudder when I think back to the Finals of 1998. Brian Beatty & I were almost one drop of sweat away from heat stroke watching Teams #1 & #45 battling it out for king of the puck -- it was HOT). "

Well, as a warning to all, it is already quite hot down here, so be sure to bring that sunscreen, and drink LOTS of fluids, namely water, cause it's only going to get hotter over the next two weeks.
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Unread 11-04-2002, 17:10
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Quote:
Originally posted by AdamT
Really veteran teams played ONLY with veteran teams. I believe at most, team 7 play in a match with a rookie team in it 3 times.

Rookie teams played with rookie teams, it was the exact same way for rookies...


Seemed to be the opposite for LSR. 118 and 16 (at least - those were the ones I checked) had no partner below the three hundreds. We also were never paired with the same team twice.
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Unread 11-04-2002, 17:18
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Re: Defining Random

Quote:
Originally posted by Joe Johnson
As the person who writes FIRST's tourney software, would you please tell us how you randomize the seeding matches?

It seems to a lot of us that things don't seem so random. We often follow the same team for match after match.

I think that it is may be possible to get a fair random set of matches by dividing teams up into random groups and then randomly shuffling the groups to get your pairings, but I am not quite convinced that is what you are doing or that that would provide a random set of pairings in all cases.

So... ...would you mind sharing a bit of the though process you used to make up the matches.

Also, while I am asking, how many seeding rounds do you suppose each team will get?

Finally, how is FIRST going to split up the divisions? Is it going to be random or will they make sure that Kingman and Las Guerrillas are in different divisions (for example)?

Do tell...

Joe J.
Am I right in saying that some randomness was sacrificed (if it existed at all) in order to ensure that a team's matches were evenly spread out?
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Unread 11-04-2002, 19:39
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divisions

On the FIRST site it has 4 divisions. They are at Archimedes, Curie, Galileo, and Newton. It says nothing about Einstein. just thought i'd let everyone know.
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Unread 11-04-2002, 21:42
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Read the thread in the rumor forum. The names of the divisions will not be the same as the field names.
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Unread 11-04-2002, 22:40
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Joe (and friends;-)

No, this year, the match scheduling is definively not random. Unlike last year, secrecy is not needed, so we used a simple algorithm that yeilds a predictable but (usually) good schedule. I have always got my hand out looking for a better way of doing schedules. Let me lay out the schedule requirements first:

(1) All teams must play the same number of rounds (with the fewest number possible "extra" matches).

(2) A round (a set of matches where all teams play each other once) should basically be played to completion before the next round starts (this ensures that all teams play all day)

(3) For each team, the inter-match spacing between successive matches should be as large and as regular as possible. There MUST BE at least 3 matches between succesive plays (if possible)

(4) Teams should play with different partners as much as possible

(5) Teams should play with different opponents.

(6) Teams should play on different field positions through the day

-- and probably some more constraints.

This year, I create the schedule by splitting the field into 4 groups.
Imagine them arranged as columns. Each row then forms a match. I then rotate the second column by 1, the third column by 2, and (Surprise!) the fourth column by 3. Form the next matches and repeat.

There are a few more tricks in here. I have recently added an extra rotation step to help mix the lists when the number of teams (like 48) would yield a repeating schedule. Also, there is some trickyness on handling the end matches (when the number of teams are not evenly divisible by 4), but I think you get the idea here.

This results in a schedule that is pretty good, but not always perfect. It is very good at getting an even number of plays, and most of the time, making the inter-match spacing very even. With some numbers of teams, it yields repeated partners and opponents (Sorry) but this has been improved in week 5 of regionals. It is also non-random and the patern is discernable by observation.

After the schedule is formed, teams are randomly assigned into it. Sorry, conspiracy theorists, there is no checking to see if teams are vetrans or rookies -- just luck of the draw. My sincere apologies if the randomness went against you.

It would be possible to implement this in a random fashion, or maybe as a genetic algorithm, but so far, a good solution in this form has eluded me. Mostly, it is difficult to get the inter-match spacing large for all teams. Maybe someone out there wants to contribute one?

B.
  #28   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 11-04-2002, 22:43
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Cool Predicted Division Seedings

If you're curious about which division your team might be competing in at Nationals, check out my predictions on MOE's website: http://www.moerobotics.org/predict.php

How did I arrive at these predictions? Regional Championship teams were assigned first, followed by all other teams. Teams in each group were assigned in order of their average QP's from all Regionals in which they competed, highest avg QP to lowest. I believe that this is how FIRST assigns teams, and if it isn't, it should be. It evenly distributes the regional champions as well as the best teams, etc.

Of course, I could be totally wrong ...
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Unread 11-04-2002, 22:51
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Re: Predicted Division Seedings

Quote:
Originally posted by Bill Enslen
If you're curious about which division your team might be competing in at Nationals, check out my predictions on MOE's website: http://www.moerobotics.org/predict.php

How did I arrive at these predictions? Regional Championship teams were assigned first, followed by all other teams. Teams in each group were assigned in order of their average QP's from all Regionals in which they competed, highest avg QP to lowest. I believe that this is how FIRST assigns teams, and if it isn't, it should be. It evenly distributes the regional champions as well as the best teams, etc.

Of course, I could be totally wrong ...
Last i heard 157 was also going to Nats. Since they won Philly, that might mess up you predictions. I didn't see them on your list
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Unread 11-04-2002, 22:53
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As for divisions, here is today's news --

Fields are named according to famous inventors as is well known (Curie, Archemedes, Newton, Einstein)

Teams will play a rotating schedule across the fields, attempting to ensure that every team plays at least once on each field. This should keep us from roasting all day... but it will mean a lot of running and confusion. We are trying to make the rotations accur with logical daily breaks (lunch, etc). In the spirit of G.P., it seemed to be the fair thing to do to make everyone rotate instead of the alternatives of letting one Div roast on Einstein, or the alternative of having 3 "home" divisions and one "roaming" division. Be prepared, be informed.

Divisions will be named both after the inventors and a color. Turns out the awards are engraved with the names of the inventors before the rotation problem was recognized. IMHO, I would focus on the colors for the divisions to make it simple. The curent mapping is Curie Division = Yellow, Archemedes Division = Blue, Newton Division =Red, Einstein Division = (Green or White TBD).

Teams are assigned to divisions in a magical secret ceremony involving smoke from burning motors, WD-40, duck tape, and 4 sacrifical soccer balls. OK, its getting late. Seriously folks, FIRST makes assignments to ensure a hearty competiton. It is mostly random with some review to ensure that strong competitors and rookies are well distributed across the divisions. Maybe someday when we have an online FIRSTSTAR(tm) rating and a full set of comparitive match results, we could do something scientifically, but it is somewhere between random and heuristic methods now. Don't worry, be happy...

BruceM
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