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View Poll Results: Is Battlebots I.Q. a threat to FIRST?
Nope, true quality and decency will show through, XFL 77 34.53%
Although Battlebots will climb up, they won't be that big, think UPN vs. NBC, ABC, or CBS 56 25.11%
They will be on the same level, like American and National baseball leagues 39 17.49%
Battelbots IQ is a better concept and will triumph over FIRST 12 5.38%
Don't Care 39 17.49%
Voters: 223. You may not vote on this poll

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  #16   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 19-04-2002, 00:39
BSMFIRST BSMFIRST is offline
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Guys, this is the first BattleBots IQ competition EVER. If you want to compare it to FIRST, compare it to the '92 competition with 28 teams in a gym..or better yet don't compare them at all.

What you're totally missing about BattleBots and BattleBots IQ is that you have the freedom to make any robot you'd like. You have the freedom to do as much or little learning as you'd like; the same can be said of FIRST. Woodie even said it himself, "the educational merits of participating in First and in BattleBots IQ could 'be quite equivalent'."

And the fact is, the BBIQ team that I coached had an awesome time. This was the first robot (thing, RC car, *whatever*) that they had ever built and I could see in them that same new-found confidence that I felt after my first year in FIRST.

Dan
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Unread 19-04-2002, 12:48
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Thumbs up No threat, only opportunity

Like a moth to a flame…..better yet…from Don Quixote… “….march into hell for a heavenly cause”


Consider this….

Why would anyone want to deny some kids the thrill, excitement and empowerment that they worked so hard to enjoy and obviously got from the BB IQ competition this past May?

I was in that little Gymnasium in Manchester NH back when FIRST was a contest between lightweight bot’s with only 35 teams and a handful of students….brave kids willing to try something new and exciting….before it became a mainstream success.

I saw the same excitement there as I did 7 years later in the BBIQ pits…I saw passion and engagement and a celebration of the empowerment that comes to those who work hard to bring an idea, their idea, to life….I witnessed the awesome courage required to display the 3 dimensional physical embodiment of their idea, and risk probable failure in doing so…Courage, hard work and excitement….risk taking, knowing and doing…sharing, helping and celebrating…no game, no contest and certainly no person or group of people have a monopoly on those things…These are available for all to enjoy in ways they choose…..it is the freedom exercised by FIRST competitors, BBIQ competitors and all other competitors in the wide diversity of venues available to them….Or are there those who would waste their time arguing that Baseball is better for the country than Lacrosse?

Tilting at windmills.

We should be teaching students not to make assumptions….in engineering as well as in life.

Folks like Dan (BSMFIRST) or Lucien (Natchez) demonstrate open mindedness about BB and FIRST and the hundreds of other engineering competitions to choose from.…

This speaks volumes about them as people and as gracious professionals. Dan and Lucien and others like them have an open mind because they work hard to keep their minds open.

Sounds simple enough right?

Not so.

Keeping an open mind takes a lot of effort. Open minded people serve as good examples. We would all do well to pay particular attention to them. We should all practice keeping an open analytical mind about the things we DO and THINK about.

The practice of adopting, believing in, or voicing strong opinions about ideas or methods of which we have no empirical data is frowned upon in science and engineering… and it is the fuel that feeds the fires of hatred and ignorance in this already troubled world….


The common message of ALL engineering competitions, and there are hundreds, and hundreds more coming yearly, is simply this: Think the problem out before you act on it.

Accomplished scientists and engineers test theories and hypotheses.

When engineers think hard, develop mechanical concepts and then test them…they are defining themselves as professionals. Your family physician has taken promises to “Do no harm”…your mentoring engineer promises to.. “Make no assumptions”.

I’d like to refer everyone who bothers to read this thread to a very exciting and illuminating, engineering website.

http://www-me.mit.edu/Research/DesManResearch.htm

This site contains the course notes for the MIT Design and Manufacturing I , ME course. These notes were authored by Professor Alex Slocum…Alex runs the MIT 2.007 course…a course that was conceived by Woodie and served as the inspiration not only for FIRST, but for the process of learning engineering by DOING engineering at hundreds of universities worldwide.

If you are a teacher, then please, take the time to read the megabytes of wisdom offered in these notes! If you are a student of engineering design…then you would be unwise to miss this opportunity. If you are a practicing technical professional then you’ll enjoy Alex’s POV.

One of the key underlying points Alex makes is that good design is “Deterministic Design”. Deterministic Design is an engineering creation process founded on the scientific method. A principle stating that you cannot know something to be true unless you perform the experiment that validates the assumption. He terms these experiments BLE’s or bench level experiments…but the point remains constant, good robust designs come from ideas that have been tested …..not from assumptions.

Alex’s philosophy inspired the creation of a BattleBots IQ educational website, www.bbiq.com

BB and FIRST are experiments…..(refer to all of the above) If you haven’t done the experiments…you don’t have the data. Once you have the data…the conclusions you reach are all yours….

I try to offer points and counter points, not to champion one experiment over the other, but rather to keep the river of ideas flowing…and to break down the “Beaver Dams” of opinion and assumption.

Good and bad are subjective concepts with regard to robots. …but facts are worth pursuing in the quest for any objective…

Here is some data gleaned from experiments my students and I have performed.

1.) All BattleBots are not catastrophically damaged during a BattleBots event….in fact most are not catastrophically damaged during an event…and they go home happy and no worse for the experience. We are currently building our 3rd and 4th BB. Intelligent designers insure their robots have “Mouth guards, shoulder pads and Locktite on their nuts.” These machines are built to score points and to absorb mechanical energy…remember, it is often necessary to win up to 8 matches in order to claim the silver nut.
2.) All robots break during competition. That’s why we have machine shops and spare parts at the FIRST competition sites and in the BBIQ Pits.
3.) FIRST is about Inspiration and Recognition, and that is a good thing. FIRST and BBIQ are different “Experiments”.
4.) BattleBots IQ is about education. BBIQ is a student centered program that recognizes the benefits of learning through active participation and recognizes the educational benefits of failure. BBIQ teachers and engineering mentors sign a registration form attesting to the fact that the BBIQ robots were wholly designed and built by students….not by teachers or mentors…as I’ve pointed out, this does not make BBIQ better or worse than FIRST, It’s just a different experiment. It’s like shop class used to be…but these are not bird houses! (Although I love building bird houses)
5.) As an educator responsible for the emotional and social well being of the students under my charge, I see no difference in the “Crowds” at either event…I’ve seen good and bad sportsmanship all my life…the “Bell Curves” remain constant…my son and his friends are in my class, and on our BBIQ engineering team!.
6.) And finally, hatred and ignorance are born and cultivated by people, not by sumo robot programs, soccer playing robot programs, BattleBots or FIRST or any other engineering program designed to celebrate designing, thinking or being like an engineer.

We should all visit again 10 years from now…FIRST, BB and the many versions of mechanized competition that will follow will be markedly different. They will all evolve to meet the needs and expectations of the participants. They will all improve, and the levels of sophistication will be extraordinary. Witness the birth of home computing in the late 70’s and early 80’s…I still have a Trash 80….anyone have a Sinclair? Look at basketball, first played in Worcester Massachusetts with 11 players on a team and no dribbling….

In closing I am willing to risk the following statements in an effort to counter the bias and deconstruction of communication I am witnessing on this and other forums….and to “Raise the bar…of gracious professionalism”…

There is nothing to FEAR about FIRST or BBIQ…fear is born of ignorance. These are mechanized competitions that allow portals for a wide variety of learning and doing engineering activities for a wide audience of students. There is room, even a necessity for a wider diversity of mechanized competitions.

We need MORE venues like FIRST or BBIQ….not less. We need people to celebrate and embrace and to create the widening concept of mechanized sports, We do not need folks willing to force (unfavorable) comparisons or fabricate facts. And we decidedly do not need people actively polarizing issues and aggravating each others sensibilities with poorly worded “Polls” or posts that only serve to support the growing bias towards robot games that are not like nor intended to be like FIRST.

The things we like or choose to do, should not be defined as the “Best Thing” by making something else the “Bad Thing”…..This is important for kids to understand, and adults should not use assumptions and opinions to appeal to the loyalty of children…This is true of fans on both sides of this fence.

I love what both of these programs, as well as many other engineering programs, are doing for schools and education in this country…and I love showing my students that they can exercise choice, do the experiments, and then decide for themselves.

Good luck to all of you who are attending the FIRST nationals! Play, break, win or loose…enjoy what all of these programs are really about…enjoy thinking, being gracious in victory and defeat, and remember…you learn as much from failures (or more) than you do from success!

Be gracious professionals in everything you do…on and off the robot playing field!

Mr.B
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  #18   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 19-04-2002, 13:50
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Well said

Mr. B

It's good to hear from you. You are still an inspiration to many of us. Keep up the good work.

I totally agree with your opinion that BBIQ and FIRST can co-exist and thrive.

Kudos to you and the other BBIQ folks who are putting on a successful program. For me, I'll stick with FIRST... but I will also applaud those who want to "play" a different way.

Andy B.
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Unread 19-04-2002, 14:35
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Excellent post

Excellent post Mr B. It's good to see a well thought out & positive post in a BB thread instead of people putting down something they have little first hand knowledge of.

I have never seen BB in person, only the dramatized show on CC, but I hear that the pits are much like FIRST: friendly teams willing to share and help their fellow competitors. I refuse to put down a program I have no real knowledge of.

Continue to stop by the board and offer your wonderful insight. It's a refreshing departure from the BB vs FIRST bickering.

Something to think about: how gracious is it to tear down another person in order to build yourself up?

Mike
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Unread 19-04-2002, 17:50
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To Mr. B, Nola, Lucien, and others – I agree with Mr. B that being open minded is important and crucial. However, just because some people do not feel BB and BBIQ are positive programs, I think it is unfair to brand them as close minded. It is possible they have weighed the pros & cons of each program and have just come to a different, non biased conclusion as you have. For some in this thread, it is virtually impossible to argue an unbiased and fair comparison of FIRST to BB or BBIQ, as they are employed/paid by BB and BBIQ, just as the arguments of FIRST employees would be equally biased – it is only natural when looking at a debate to get “defensive” and “defend” the program you are associated with and maybe over look some of it’s problems.

Please excuse the length of this post: We have read all the arguments in favor/against each program and a group of us have spent a lot of time/thought trying to combine all our thoughts into this one reply (adults – thanks for the proof reading and helping us put some ideas in a more sophisticated tone) ….

We are starting a robotics program/team at our school next year. We researched BOTH programs in great detail, have watched videos/TV of both competitions, and have interviewed participants of BOTH programs – and we feel that both competitions have positive aspects. Let us share with you how/why our school has deemed one program to be of much higher value than the other:

In all the arguments about the two programs, we have concluded that a few things are true about each program:

BOTH FIRST and BB/BBIQ encourage and promote science, technology, and engineering.

BOTH FIRST and BB/BBIQ provide great, exciting, and fun competitions that celebrate what the students/teams have built.

We have also found a few criticisms of each program to be slanted/unfair/inaccurate:

Size constraints:
Some have criticized FIRST for not having a National Competition open to ALL. We called BBIQ, and they told us that there would be a cap for their National Event if hundreds of participants ever enter (but they only got in the mid 40’s). BBIQ will also limit the size of their events, just as FIRST does. This is not the fault of EITHER program – it is just logistics and reality.
We have concluded both are the same/equal in this category.

Student/engineer involvement:
FIRST students DO participate and build the robots just as much as BB students. Do some teams have the engineers do a majority of the work, yes. Do some engineers do most of the work on FIRST teams AND BB teams, yes. Is it up to each team to decide how much design/build/machining work the students do? Yes. So the argument that one program includes the students more is worthless in our judgment, as it is up to each team to decide (and in each competition our team would go up against robots built almost entirely by engineers – which we don’t mind and consider a challenge). We don’t want the students to do this alone – that is what a science fair is. We want to learn concepts and designs which we don’t currently have the education & experience to do – hopefully we can do this hand in hand with real engineers who will build a robot with us and hopefully we will learn things from the engineers and they will learn things from us.
We have concluded both are the same/equal in this category.

Cost of each program:
“BBIQ is cheaper than FIRST” – untrue. The guise of only costing $100 appears nice. But we have called and spoke to numerous teams in each competition. Once BBIQ teams include the cost of the control system, motors, speed controllers, and other things which come with the FIRST registration fee – the cost is similar. BBIQ teams told us their budgets JUST on the robots (without travel) were 5-10k. FIRST is actually cheaper than BBIQ because we can compete in a regional event and don’t have to travel to another part of the country to compete – so it is actually 5-10k LESS for us to participate in. Plus, FIRST gives us the OPTION of ALSO qualifying for and raising the funds for a National Competition – our choice if we qualify.
We have concluded both are the same/equal in this category if we compete in the National Championship, but that FIRST is cheaper if we compete in one event.

Money/incentive/rewards:
BBIQ promotes the possibility of being on TV and/or getting royalties if our robots are made into toys. This is cool, and a point for BBIQ. FIRST promotes over 2 million dollars of scholarships available to students on FIRST teams. This is cool and a point for FIRST. We have also concluded that the money carrot dangled by BBIQ is dependent on their ratings and sponsors (which will not be around once the ratings go down since BB’s is a for profit endeavor 1st while FIRST is a non-profit “for the kids” endeavor 1st) while the scholarships offered by FIRST are more likely to continue to exist and in fact increase each year.
We have concluded both are almost the same/equal in this category - slight advantage to BB in terms of getting on TV and slight advantage to FIRST in terms of financial rewards (scholarships are more important/valuable than money payoffs, and are more likely to be around for years to come as they are dependent on ratings).

And last, as concluded by our administration (principal) after looking at both of our proposals – which program promotes the right values and sends the right message:

Both programs require the students to learn science & technology skills, however the end product/message of the two programs are different. The end product is displayed at the competition. The FIRST competition displays alliances, teamwork, good sportsmanship, rules, and excitement - but in a competitive sports “team” model where the teams are encouraged to outperform/out score the other alliance. She decided that FIRST encourages kids to “raise the bar” and “challenges the team to improve upon the designs/ideas/advancements made by other teams”. She decided that the BB and BBIQ competitions display “one on one” combat where the only “guaranteed” way to be victorious is to destroy/disable/hurt/kill your opponent. She feels BB and BBIQ promote the “solution to the problem is violence – hurt/disable/kill your opponent to be victorius” while FIRST promotes the “solution to the problem is teamwork, raising the bar, and doing better than your opponent without having to hurt/disable/destroy them”. She said that while the first 90% of both programs (FIRST and BBIQ) are similar and promote/encourage science, technology, and engineering – the last 10%, the product displayed to the public at the competitions and on TV sends a different message.
In sports terms:
the finished product for FIRST comes across as the Olympics – celebrates training, raising the bar, good sportsmanship, and positive values.
The finished product of BB and BBIQ comes across as the WWF, a %%%%/rooster fight, or a pit bull fight – and celebrates winning by disabling/hurting/killing your opponent. She says as a principal, she would be fired and liable for supporting/condoning students participating in a %%%%/rooster fight or pit bull fight and that if you put roosters or pit bulls in a Battlebots arena instead of robots – that is EXACLTY what the competition is (except that it is combined with the Texas Chainsaw Massacre, where a third party controls chain saws which also try to kill the combatants – would be like a referee in sports being able to randomly hit the participants with a hammer or chainsaw).
Our school concluded (and our students agree after looking at both programs with what we consider an “open minded, researched, and informed” analysis) that FIRST is a positive program for our school to participate in which also promotes the right values and message to our students.
We have concluded that FIRST is clearly a better option and program for our students in this category.

We hope this came across as an “open minded” analysis of each program and pointed out the many similarities between the two. We have spent many months considering both programs. Basically – both programs are very equal except that BB and BBIQ have “kill saws” and encourage us to find a way to disable/destroy/or kill our opponent. As students, we see enough one on one “disagreements” at school solved after school or during lunch by fighting and trying to hurt the other person to be the “winner”. FIRST seems to hold more positive values and is more challenging (more engineering tasks to conquer each year + the game changes each year which we find much more appealing). If BB and BBIQ changed their competition to have “civil/sportsmanship” rules, encourage solutions not based on violence, and changed the game each year - our school and especially us students would love to participate in it. But until then, we will opt for FIRST – just our conclusion, and everyone has the right to analyze each program and decide whatever they want. Both programs can co-exist, just as Olympic Wrestling and the WWF co-exist – they just promote different skills, different values, and get different media coverage. As much as they want to promote the similar positive aspects BB/BBIQ provide when compared to FIRST - we don’t think BB/BBIQ supporters can deny that their end product (competition) sends a message of “violence as the solution to a problem” while FIRST does the opposite. Again, sorry for the length, we just thought what we felt is an “open minded” analysis of the debate might hold some value to some people. Maybe not.

Thanks for having a forum everyone can post their views - it has helped us as we start our team.

Frank and team 000 until a few months from now. (we'll be watching the National on NASA TV!!!! - Good luck everyone)
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  #21   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 19-04-2002, 19:18
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I think that the fact that Mr. Bastioni is one of the founding fathers of the BBIQ program speaks for the fact that this program will have a major impact on the nation at large.

I've met Mr. Bastoni several times, (We still miss the Rumble at the Rock, is BBIQ having one?) and he is definatly a huge inspriation to those who are around him.

Nice to see your still around Mr. B, I'll tell Moe you said hi.
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Unread 19-04-2002, 21:52
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Frank's "Math" is Awesome!

Frank,

You made a great choice!

And I am keenly aware that you do not need my approval to validate your choice...but I'd like the opportunity to share a possibly worthy point. So please forgive me.

You and the community of learners at your school "Did the math" necessary to make the right choices for your program...and that is the simple message for all of us.

What you did Frank is the very embodiment of "Deterministic Design" as outlined in the lecture notes from the MIT Design Manufacturing Course...a course started by Woodie...a course that served as the model for FIRST...and a host of other engineering programs ...and is currently managed by Prof. Alexander Slocum at MIT...

Read the notes from this course Frank...You'll love it!

http://pergatory.mit.edu/2.007/lectures/lectures.html


Of course you have an open mind...and better yet, your using it to make important decisions....open minded people do not necessarily arrive at the same conclusions...good grief no...History provides us with great stories of intensely debated philosophies, scientific conclusions and ideologies...and it is this rich and passionate debate that births ideas based on evidence and research....an incremental and iterative process of getting closer and closer to what is true...to what works best...given the design parameters. A process based on rsearch and knowledge, not on opinion and emotion.

After all...can you honestly say with any certainty which FIRST bot is THE BEST in any given season? Or which BattleBot is the best..I think not. The "Best Bot" is simply indeterminate math...the answer changes every time you do the problem...that is the fun of it...

The 2.007 lecture notes begins with a quote from Ralph Waldo Emerson...

"
Enthusiasm is one of the most powerful engines of success. When you do a thing, do it with all your might. Put your whole soul into it. Stamp it with your own personality. Be active, be energetic, be enthusiastic and faithful and you will accomplish your object. Nothing great was ever achieved without
enthusiasm".....

Your enthusiasm shows in the effort you put into making your decision...your Principal's enthusiasm shows in the effort she put into working with you and your team to arrive at the conclusion that FIRST was the best program choice for your school....and undoubtedly it is....

Our school administrators, our teachers and our students "Did the Math" also...and simply came up with a different conclusion..just like we all come up with different robot designs given the same universe of parts and game objectives...

It's OK to think different Frank...in fact it's a good thing!

I only ask that people consider that the functional requirements, and thus the "Math" is different for every school, or youth organization looking to involve itself in technological programming.

FIRST is a great program, and certainly the best program for your school needs...but the needs or requirements or logistics of school based programs are mutable...they change.

This is why it is important that there are choices for others to make...what fun would it be if there were only GM cars to choose from...good products (I own one)...but Hummers are cool too, and how about Hondas? or the nearly 25 other major auto manufacturers on this planet?

Choices are a good thing...

Our team was blessed with many great engineering mentors, parents and administrators...and of course...students! We were, and we remain passionate about what we are doing...we worked hard, and still work hard to support FIRST in many ways...and we work equally hard to support BBIQ....

Your choice is a great one Frank...and so is ours...let's celebrate our good fortune...lets toast to all our successes...let's wish each other the very best in what we choose to do....

And let's do it with all the passion and enthusiasm we can possibly generate....and lets hope we are all successful...these are simply robot games Frank....just games....the important things are you and me and all the other fine people who play them....

I salute you Frank...you are decidedly "Open minded"...and you have the soul of a truth seeker. You will be succesful in whatever you choose to do.

Long live all engineering competitions that result in the development of a sense of community among the participants and foster a love for learning, knowing and doing things that teachers, mentors, administrators, parents and students can get passionate about...and there are hundreds that do this!


Frank...I'll pose this "Loaded" question for you to research...

Has there ever been a person who could claim both a FIRST and a BattleBots National Championship Title? and who would that be?

The point I would hope to illustrate here is that these competitions are not mutually exclusive...One does not in any way negate the other....They do not threaten eachother...they actually improve one another...my school administrators took pride in our having participated in both. They looked at the passion of the kids...and we managed the rest.

Our administrators do the the "Math" differently too. They recognize that the true danger lies in the shop tools we use to build the Robots. The shop tools we use are far more dangerous than any FIRST bot or BattleBot our students designed or built. We see little difference between the robot games we play, and the Hollywood animitronic engineers who work insanely hard to design and build intricate and electronically sophisticated models that they then destroy making movies. But, hey, that's just out POV, and we don't expect that anyone else has to share it...but they do...just like many (16000) people share your teams POV...and that is a good thing.

It's OK for each of us to do the math and arrive at different answers....and we can support eachothers conclusions completely, even though our conclusions are different!

Yeah diversity.

Good luck next year!

Mr.B
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Unread 19-04-2002, 22:11
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Wow, this is great. I never though such though out ideas will be here, thanks Mr. B and Frank!

There are three camps that are here/you can choose from; bias to FIRST, bias to BB and/or BBIQ, un-bias. Althoug everyone is bias to a degree, I think this post is the epitimy of what FIRS and BBIQ is about, meeting challanges and taking them head on.

Thanks and hope to see you at the Nats (PS Frank, look for Sparky 3.0!)
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Unread 20-04-2002, 04:52
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Re: Frank's "Math" is Awesome!

Has there ever been a person who could claim both a FIRST and a BattleBots National Championship Title? and who would that be?

It's funny you should ask that Mr B. Yes, there has been! Carlo Bertochini coached the '95 FIRST champion bot as well as his own mega-successful bot Biohazard.

All in all though, great posts though. I am so happy to see a coherent discussion about this topic; we're getting somewhere now.

Dan
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Unread 20-04-2002, 13:48
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I think Battlebots will become big when robot technology can be reached to everyone, including in low-income homes. Look at wrestling, that is a huge violent sport, and look how big it has become. When RC controllers, micro-chips&processors, etc... come down, i do think eveyone will be out for robots like battle bots. Hey, it's in human nature, when, for the most part, BIG things happen, they usually are violent, and everyone wants to know what happened...
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Unread 20-04-2002, 19:49
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i dont know if you guys read the new york times article last week, but they were comparing FIRST to the high school battlebats competition..... now we all know FIRST is better but they have so much media access, and the draw of the agressive quality
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Unread 21-04-2002, 22:22
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Warning - Long post (2/3 the maximum post length )

Hi everyone. I'm new (I just found this place looking for Isaac32 system information), I thought I'd chime in here.

To let you know where I'mcoming from - I haven't competed in FIRST. I never will, as I'm now in college. However, I would have, if my school had it available - however, it wasn't; I'm not sure if people hadn't heard of it, or if people didn't want to pay for it.

On the other side of things, I have competed at Battlebots, twice in fact. The first was with the bot Vortex during Season 3, May 2001, where we lost our first fight; the second was with Kobotsu at BBIQ a few weeks ago,where we went away 2-2. Vortex was built almost entirely with my own money - I put about $2,000 into it. Kobostu was more of a team effort, so I ended up paying about $1,500 of that (about half the cost of the bot, not including the Nicad batteries we reused from Vortex).

Both competitions have their difficulties -

One is that the students don't always do all the work - None of you can say with a straght face that every FIRST bot was built by the students on the team; Neither can I argue that every BBIQ bot was built by the students.

FIRST is expensive - There is no way, with what I paid to have a competative BBIQ bot, that I could build anything remotely competative for FIRST. I've heard of pelnty of FIRST bots costing over $30,000; I challenge you to find a BBIQ bot that cost half that; In the $3-$5,000 range is average, and there have been many junkyard bots build for under $1000; I'd be willing to wager that the average FIRST bot costs more then $5,000. BBIQ bots tended to be somewhat simplistic, with as few mechanisms as possible and often running the default Isaac code (though I take great pride in being the programmer on the team that won the "Best use of the IFI system" special award). These facts are not unrelated. If I had as much money as some of the FIRST teams have, you'd better believe I'd have put more stuff in there; Actually, I'm putting some systems in my next bot that haven't ever been seen in Battlebots before involving intelligent power handling and system power consumption balencing, and I'm doing it out of pocket - I spent this morning putting stuff up on ebay to be able to afford it.

Related is that the two events focus on different kinds of engineering. FIRST focuses on building complex mechanisms to accomplish odd and varied tasks; BBIQ focuses on making mechanisms capable of surviving extreme situations. I've learned a lot about making stuff that doesn't break, partially by seeing what happened to my bot in a couple of whopping hits. I got to see first-hand what made the design weak, and what made it strong. Both knowledge of what makes things strong and knowledge of what makes complex things work is necessary for a good engineer; There is no point in making something that performs a task that constantly breaks, and no point in making something that'll survive WWIII if it doesn't do anything.

So, now you can probably see my point - both are valuable. They are both valuable for different reasons, and they aren't directly comparable - Closer then apples and oranges, but it's not a totally inacurate analogy. I just wish everyone who's just spouting nonsense about how one event is so much better then the other would get off their high horse and take a look at how everything really is, and how it relates to real life - There is almost never one solution, one clear-cut way to do something; There are multiple avenues of success, each of which has it's own advantages and disadvantages.




Now that I've made my point, I'm just going to address a few things that have been posted:

Quote:
That, I like to think is the distinction between a FIRST robotics team and Battlebots IQ team. (limited to only 5 members 4 students 1 adult).
Actually, there were some teams that numbered over 20 individuals; However, there wasn't room in the pit (BB pits tend to be crowded). so only thatmany were allowed in the pits at one time. The teams were issued special pit cards that allowed the cards to be rotated through the team members so that everyone got to come in at some point.


Quote:
At battlebots IQ you see none of these things, and in fact thier robots arent very technical. In the finals there were 2 wedges squaring off. I highly doubt that in a first robot all you will see is a drive train. You wont see technologically advaced machines like thw wildstang robot out there.
There are technical innovations, they just aren't seen in the same way. In a FIRST competition, many of the innovations are external - special systems that allow the robot to perform special operations, often in cool or unique ways. The same happens at Battlebots - there are many cool and unique robots Unfortuately, the concept of KISS applies - many innovations break easily, and you don't see those unless you attend an event - only surviveable things make it to the televised rounds of the competition. Also, many of the innovations are of a different sort - New ways of joining materials, new structures, new kinds of robots.

There are a couple additional issues at work here - FIRST is much less freeform, so you have things meant to do similar things pitted against each other; It's easy to compare them. With battlebots, it's about as freeform as you can get - play within the ruleset, and you can do anything you want. Also, there's a matter of shear number - there's not as many Battlebots as there are FIRST robots. Statistically, you'll get more cool things, just because there's more things to pick them out of.



And to anyone who says BBIQ teams didn't show teamwork and good sportsmanship, they apparently haven't ever been in the pits at a BB event. Before my second fight, I spent 6 hours trying to fix my bot AND helping my next opponant fix theirs; They did likewise. We were both suffering from a similar failure, and both teams worked together to solve it, and then we both helped another team that later suffered the same problem. Everyone shared tools, expertise, workers, materials, knowledge. Except for the occasional bad egg (so rare it sparks massive debate whenever it does happen), BB events show nearly perfect sportsmanship (which unfortunately doesn't get on the show, since Comedy Central doesn't want to show it, conflict brings more money. As a side note, many BB builders don't like CC much due to the way they handle the show).

[I was going to address more statements, but seeing how I'd probably excede the post length limit, as well as my own patience given how long I've been typing, I think I'll stop now )

So, there you have it. Feel free to respond however you wish - I'll probably be back later tonight or tomorrow evening, I'll answer any questions anybody has (within what I know, of course).


Matt Hockenheimer
matt@team-vortex.net
Co-captain, Programmer, Designer
Team Vortex
http://www.team-vortex.net (Presently badly out of date )

Last edited by vortex : 21-04-2002 at 22:25.
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Unread 21-04-2002, 22:46
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Quote:
Originally posted by vortex
Everyone shared tools, expertise, workers, materials, knowledge. Except for the occasional bad egg (so rare it sparks massive debate whenever it does happen), BB events show nearly perfect sportsmanship (which unfortunately doesn't get on the show, since Comedy Central doesn't want to show it, conflict brings more money. As a side note, many BB builders don't like CC much due to the way they handle the show).Matt Hockenheimer
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Matt,

I'm not really surprised, both in the fact that people are great sportmans and that a large contingent dislikes the way the show is presented.

If you watch the interviews with the contestentans they ususally are complementing the robot that just destoryed theirs.
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Unread 21-04-2002, 23:02
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i disagree vortex.... just because you dont have a lot of money doesnt mean that you cant build a competent FIRST robot
it is true that some teams spend incredible amounts of money on thier robots...... but many dont

i guess the thing i dont like about battle bots is that the competition is so one sided...... its destroy or be destroyed.. it seems like there is little strategy (at least compared to FIRST).... i mean, just go check out the discussion in one of the other threads about ball bots and goal bots, its long and passionate, and nobody can be wrong or right

a man from my town built a battlebot, clambot ......... and while they won the competition, it never got aired because it wasnt glamorous..... see that dissapoints me too, because comedy central just shows the robots that bring the ratings
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Unread 22-04-2002, 01:11
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Jason Morrella Jason Morrella is offline
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To clarify a few things:

1. The cost of the two programs...
BB IQ has ONE event in ONE city in the country - which means if your school is not from that city, it will cost anywhere from 10-40k to participate. I have spoken to a few teams who competed in BBIQ, and they all had to spend between 20-40k to build the robot and travel (air,hotel,food). However, FIRST has 17 (over 20 next year) events in the country - meaning it costs those schools MUCH less too participate in one FIRST event than BB IQ. The majority of teams I know of in California participate in FIRST with a budget below or around 10k. So the cost of FIRST is MUCH LESS than that of BB IQ for thousands of schools throughout the country located close to FIRST regionals. But if schools are close to FIRST and BB IQ, the costs are probably very similar, depending on the budget goals of the teams.

2. Teams with big budgets...
I have spoke to many BB's teams who have spent 25-50k on their robots. When FIRST began, maybe most teams were corporate based with big budgets - but that is not the norm anymore, as the majority of the close to 700 teams are successful with budgets in the 10k range. Plus, many of the "big" budget teams in FIRST actually spend a great deal of their resources on mentoring, workshops, off season competitions, community outreach, and other wonderful things which give back & help other schools, students, kids - and that part of the budget doesn't go to their "robot" at all. It's a great thing those teams do, and something which makes FIRST unlike ANY other high school program. The "big budgets" of many FIRST teams actually help other teams in their area. Do some teams have big budgets in both programs - yes. Do many teams have small budgets in both programs - yes.

3. FIRST has shown for years (to the chagrin of many) that it will choose to control the message it sends to kids and control the values it wants to promote, knowing that not giving up control of the game, message to kids, and values of the program to Television costs it money and exposure. BB & BBIQ choose not to make that same sacrifice - nothing wrong with that, just two different paths. Educators, engineers, and all people in FIRST and I'm sure many in BB IQ are all for getting kids into science, math, technology, and engineering. They just disagree a bit on the social responsibility to not promote/glamorize violence. Can FIRST or BB's find a way to make the game a TV draw (ratings) without selling out and giving into the way CC sells robotics (sex/violence)? That is the challenge I would like to see either/both programs tackle.

I wish people understood there is no competition between BBIQ and FIRST. The only thing about BBIQ which many educators and people who support FIRST object to is the end product, not what leads up to it. If BB IQ ever changed it's game so that it didn't promote violence, make violence the solution to problem (the way to victory), make violence sexy/fun, and so on - then there would be no debate - it would just be another great program and option for schools to participate in. But until it adopts a message and values which are acceptable to be promoted in a school atmosphere, then people will continue to debate if it should be in schools.

Some have said "I still don't fully agree w/ your assertion that fighting robots is worse than full contact sports". This is a valid question. So here is my answer:

It's how you win. That's it, that simple. I don't mind fighting robots, I consider FIRST robots to be fighting - just have rules. Teach kids there are rules, just like in real life. That you can compete, but you can't hurt/kill. Contact sports still have points, strategy, rules, and sportsmanship. Show kids that you win by doing better than your opponent without needing to kill/hurt/or disable them. That's the difference, at least to me.

I have heard BB IQ supporters defend criticism by pointing out that high schools have wrestling teams. That is true - wrestling is a competitive sport with rules much like FIRST: train hard, try to be strong, fast, agile, powerful, smart, etc... but if you break rules such as bite, break an arm, poke a person in the eye, or try to cut the other wrestlers head off with a chain saw then YOU are the loser. BB IQ would be the equivalent of a school starting a WWF wrestling team - all the pre event training would hold value - but once competing, if the other competitor happens to be faster, stronger, bigger, smarter, more agile than you - then don't worry about training harder to come back better, you can still win if you just hit them over the head with a chair, bite them, poke them in the eye, or hey, just push them into a "kill saw". Any principal in the country would be fired instantly for supporting or promoting a WWF team to their students - and rightfully so.

I have no problem with the WWF or BB's as entertainment shows on TV (I'd be lying if I said I didn't watch them on occasion or find them interesting). But what I find entertaining or fun outside of school really doesn't matter in the classroom - as a teacher I would be wrong to show/promote a WWF match in class. BB IQ has some good aspects similar to FIRST (kids building a robot, learning skills, challenging themselves, etc...), and I applaud those. But as long as violence is the end product, then the means to the ends don't justify it being a high school supported program.

But it's not an issue of competition - if/when BB IQ decides to promote a game without violence being the way to victory, I, and I think many, would support it just like we support FIRST. We aren't in a business here (at least FIRST isn't) and the two programs aren't in competition, we are all in this to help kids and send them the right messages. I have met a number of the top people associated with BB IQ. They are greatly respected by many in the FIRST community, and it is much deserved respect. No one does or should question the intentions of those people, there is no definitive right or wrong. There is just a difference of opinion about where the line should be drawn when it comes to promoting/glamorizing violence to kids. In the wonderful, intelligent, and respectful exchange between Frank and Mr. B, I obviously agree that every school should do what is best for their kids. It's no secret that I would feel Frank, his team, and his school made the right decision. (Frank, look forward to meeting you and seeing your team at the 2003 regional). But I appreciate the views of everyone on this thread and think/hope it has raised some good questions, plus maybe cleared up some mistaken assumptions about both programs.

I speak only for myself here and no one else, just my humble opinion. (I know, another long post...I apologize...but at least I post less than I did last year)

JM

Last edited by Jason Morrella : 22-04-2002 at 03:23.
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